Hey, this is Tom Adams and I
wanna welcome you to the Advisory

Board Insider Podcast today.

I am, I'm really excited today because,
uh, you get to meet Bridget Reid

And Bridget Reid is an E S G expert.

She is a sustainable finance
expert with an incredible amount

of history and experience.

Global history and experience who
also works on advisory boards.

And one of the things that I think is
really helpful about these conversations

on the advisory board insiders, I
get to, I get to interact with these

really insightful people who have
very specific focus in the world.

And Bridget's no different.

And one of the things that, that we
get to talk about today is not just her

history and the experiences she had that
led her to where she is now and the,

the advice she gives, the consulting
work she does, uh, the, the board

work she does, but also to really help
define terms and to define terminology.

And one of the cool things about
these kind of conversations and the

conversations I'm about to have with
Bridget is you get to experience that.

And I hope if you're interested in e s
G and E S G is a part of the world that

you are looking at, uh, sustainability is
something that's, uh, matters to you, then

Bridgets somebody that you need to know.

And I hope that as you listen to her,
you'll gain some great insights and,

uh, you'll learn something as a result.

So here we go.

Bridget Reid, welcome to the
Advisory Board Insider podcast.

I'm glad you're

here.

Thank you so much for having

me.

Yeah, it's really nice to have you here.

So let's start with what are
your geographic coordinates

today?

Well, question.

I'm in Baja, California, sir.

So it's the kind of peninsula
that pops out under California,

but on the Mexican side, I think
you've probably heard a carbo.

We're about an hour north of Carbo.

So in a place J just
outside of Toto, Santos.

Right.

And so

those of us who are observing the
video version of this get a sense

of that just by your background.

You're not in a studio, well, you are.

I think you're in a really cool studio,
but it's a real studio and I see all

kinds of interesting tropical looks

behind you.

Yeah.

Hopefully you'll see some
hummingbirds come through.

I can see the, the water from where I
am, and we are about 30 meters from the

beach, so it's a pretty nice spot here.

It's

amazing.

So let's begin with your
morning drink of choice.

What do you drink to

start the day?

Coffee.

Always a coffee to get the, the day going
would prefer, say latte or a cappuccino,

but I don't trust us making that in-house.

So we just go with the
mocha pot, go with a little

beer lady.

Okay.

And it's a, and you use the, you
use the pot on top of the stove.

Yeah.

Which I think is, yeah, very different
to the American style coffee.

Yes.

Now I'm more the Italian
style coffee with the Beeri.

So it's kind of like an espresso as
close, close as you get to a high net

espresso without an espresso machine.

And do you just do
espresso or do you add milk

to it?

No, just, uh, you know,
that's a good question.

In Mexico actually, Australia has a very
unique flavored milk, I would say, and

I've never come across anything, any other
milk around the world that is the same.

So, I tend to avoid milk
unless I'm in Australia.

Got it.

So it's a, you said maka pot.

I've heard it.

Mocha pot and it depends on where
you are, I guess how you say that.

But it's straight, it's kind of
espresso like cuz we, I have that, yeah.

Every weekend actually, Saturdays
and Sundays I do, I do that same

iteration, but I also steam milk, but
it's American milk, so it's probably

not as, as good as Australian milk.

Got it.

So then let's go back before you
get that coffee, what's the, what's

the start of your day look like?

How do you, how does your day unfold for
you, typically in a typical normal day?

Not necessarily when you're
traveling or something like that.

Yeah.

But a normal day.

What's it look like for you?

So, I've got a one-year-old, so my day
starts with, Him waking up and me lying

there for a long time wondering whether
my husband's gonna get up or get, get up

to get him, or whether it's gonna be me
or whether he is gonna go back to sleep.

So there's a, there's a 20 minute
period where I'm just lying

there being like, is this it?

Is this my turn is this?

And then, um, once we get up this
morning, it was my turn to get up.

So got him up, played around with him this
morning, got him, got him some brecky,

had breakfast myself and then yeah, start
turned on the computer, handed him over

to either the nanny cus or my husband's.

Takes over and then the day
starts and he typically makes the

coffee, so he delivers the coffee.

So that's pretty good.

Beautiful.

So you've, you've already disclosed
some different things here.

So you've already mentioned Australia
and your accent doesn't sound like the

average person who lives in Mexico.

So I'm, I'm just trying to get a sense for
anyone who doesn't know you and I really

don't know you, so give me a sense of
this interesting historical framework of.

Of Australia plus Mexico.

Yeah.

Plus gi.

Give me a sense of why you are
where you are and what, what

some of that background looks

like.

So I grew up in Melbourne, which
is the very south of Australia.

The weather, in my opinion, is
atrocious for most of the years.

Some was okay, but typically not great.

I moved, I had a few jobs that took me
to different parts of Australia, but uh,

so I spent a bit of time in Outback, the
Outback in Queensland and South Australia,

but, Spent most of my time in Melbourne.

And then when I was working for, I used
to work for a company called Jacobs,

which is a big engineering consultancy.

And they had a program where they
sent staff to other countries, to

other offices for six months period.

And so I got sent across the
Edinburgh office in Scotland.

So I worked in the Edinburgh office.

So the, the idea was that there
was meant to be six months, and

I absolutely loved it over there.

And so I said to them at the
end of six months, oh, Yeah, I

think I'm gonna stay in Scotland.

He said, oh, well that's not really
how the program works, so I, I

don't think we can accommodate that.

And I was like, well, probably like,
just find another job here then.

Well, that's okay, but you'll have
to pay back the relocation costs.

I was like, oh, I didn't
see that in the contract.

Like, boss was like, what?

Like, yeah, that wasn't in the contracts.

And he was like, what about this contract?

I was like, I dunno, but they probably
should have put that in, right.

Um, so then I, they were
like, fine, you can stay.

So I stayed.

Working in the Edinburgh office.

I was there for two years.

And then, so for Jacobs, I was, uh,
environmental scientist, so working on

environmental impact assessments for kind
of large scale infrastructure projects.

So Rail road Energy, you name it.

And then I'm ac moved across to sign.

So I started working, I was still in
Edin bras, but started working for a

company called, The Grain Investment
Group, which is a subsidiary of Inquiry

Group, which is a kind of big investor.

And I hung up there for
another two years I think.

So I think we were in Edinburgh
for about four years all up.

And this may not surprise you, but the
weather was fairly like challenging.

You,

you seem to have a affinity
or, or a lack of it to weather.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So by the end of it, I was like,
I can't do another winter here.

Like, It is so beautiful.

It is so amazing.

And when the weather is great, it's so,
it, it's one of the best places in the

world, but the darkness and the cold
and the kind of, yeah, constant wet.

We were like, oh, we need to move.

We wanted to move somewhere warm.

We weren't ready to go back to Australia.

My brother lives in Mexico as well.

He's got two little kids and
he's been here for a long time.

And my husband had some
kind of work opportunities.

I had some potential.

We both were kind of learning Spanish,
but not very well that thought.

We'd make the jump and move to Mexico.

So then spent a few years in Guadalajara,
which is the second biggest city

in Mexico, and that was awesome.

Absolutely loved it.

But then, yeah, had a little.

Little baby boy and Guha is great, but
it's not, it's not my ideal place to

have a kid and we can kind of, we work
remotely and can work from when, wherever.

So, Thought we'd move to the beach,
and that's how we ended up here.

Oh,

delightful.

Yeah.

Delightful.

Well, thank you for giving context
and backdrop and I'm gonna dig into

some more of that story that you told,
but, but let's actually go back to

Melbourne, university of Melbourne 2008.

If you're okay with that?

Yeah.

You're starting a degree
in environmental science.

Yes.

What's happening in your life to
get you to think about environmental

science when you start a degree?

What?

Oh, Tom, you're gonna love this.

What's the plan?

How it works in Australia is there's
kind of a, there's a book that comes

out with all the university degrees
and it kind of has all, uh, the list

of kind of majors that you can study.

And there was, there was a
new course that came out.

It was called, uh, it was called
the Bachelor of Environments.

And it said that it had environmental
science, it, it had zoology.

And that was kind of my key focus.

I told mom, I was like, I
really wanna do zoology.

And she was like, oh, you'll
never make any money in that.

So there's no point in doing that.

But this Bachelor of Environments had
environmental science, zoology, it had

engineering, it had construction, it had.

All of these things and
I said, okay, well great.

I can do this.

I'll get my zoology hit
that I wanted to explore.

But also there's a few
other options as well.

Anyway, I signed up some of the course
and when I'd started I went to the um,

like the subject coordinator and was
like, where are all the zoology subjects?

And she was like, oh, you,
that's not in this course.

I was like, really?

Cuz it's specifically says it.

And she was like, yeah,
that was a mistake.

We don't you have to do science for that.

You can't do this.

I was like, I literally just
started the course anyway, so.

I was like, oh, well you can kind
of, I was like, I guess I'll do six

months and then see how it goes.

There were environmental science subjects
in there, so I was like, I'll explore

the environmental science subjects.

Not can always change later on, but
then, yeah, started environmental

science stuff and yeah, really.

Really enjoyed it.

Did a lot of engineering,
subject construction subjects.

It kind of was a, I'm very much
a, um, what do they call it?

A jack of all trades, a master of nothing.

Mm-hmm.

So I'd really love kind of
exploring new, new topics.

So continued down the environmental
science path and yeah, there was two

of us in the, in the whole, there was
like, you know, really there's a thousand

people that do the course and there's
two of us doing in environmental science.

So it's me and another bloke who,
yeah, kind of they, they ended up

stopping, they ended up stopping that
environmental science major from that

degree afterwards because they were like,
what were these two people doing in here?

We lo I loved it.

It was great.

It allowed me to explore a

lot.

Yeah.

So you get through that program and
it's kind of a unique program, but you

are getting to the end of that program.

You're about to graduate.

What do you like, what's the world
looking like to you in terms of.

I know a lot of people, and myself
included, you kind of get to the

end of your college career and
you go, oh, what do I do now?

Like I've got this degree.

Yeah.

And a lot of people's degree
never actually serves them going

it, it does in their own way.

But what, what were you thinking?

What was kind of coming for you
out of that education and embarking

into the next phase of your life?

Yeah, so there are a couple things.

One, I think at that stage I ended up.

Doing e I take a year off and I did a,
a ski season in Aspen where I worked

as Lift and fluffed around for six
months and just had the time of my life.

Uh, and then what else did I do that year?

I think I did a bit of travel
that year and then afterwards

I went back and did my masters.

And the Masters was kind of quite similar.

It's called, it's called the Masters'
Environment, and it's kind of, Policy,

project management, legal, did a lot
of environmental legal subjects and

then also more environmental, more
specific environmental subjects as well.

Again, really broad course, which
allowed me to kind of explore

whatever I thought was interesting.

But yeah, I had this, this huge like, oh,
what the hell am I gonna do with this?

Like I've had now like five years of
just doing what I think is interesting.

All my other mates were doing, you
know, environmental engineering

or a very specific thing.

And at the end of it I was like,
okay, well I'm just going to

apply for all of the degrees.

I mean, sorry, all of the, the
jobs out there that I thought were

interesting and all my friends
were applying for the same ones.

But it was quite interesting because
I was one of the few people that did

environmental science and did this
kind of broad, this broad masters I'd

had a very different offering than
all, all my mates that say, Did a very

specific thing who, you know, there
was like, you know, a hundred of them

that did the same thing, but there
was only two or three of us, so great.

I ended up getting all these.

Great opportunities.

So the first one was I did kind of
a short term contract with B H B

Bulletin, which was an interesting one.

I never thought I'd end up in mining
and I've done my three months stint.

I probably won't do it again, but
it was very interesting and it

was an incredible opportunity.

I ended up in a, it's called Olympic
Dam, and it's a uranium, predominantly

uranium, but they also do copper, iron,
and silver, and it's an underground mine.

And they also have a processing plant.

And just to give you a context of
scale, the underground component,

so the underground mine at that
point had more roads than Adelaide,

which is like a major, a major city.

I think it's got a 1 million,
a population of 1 million.

The underground component had more
like longer stretches of road than

it did in the thing like it was.

Absolutely monstrous.

Like it was absolutely huge.

And

so what are you doing there?

I mean, obviously you're coming from
the perspective and environmental,

this expertise that you have, but what,
what are, what are you doing day to day

in that mind?

Yeah, so they had a fairly stringent
environmental program there because

obviously they're a huge monumental risk.

They're kind of a regulated industry.

So they had a lot of government
oversight and a lot of stringent rules

in terms of the environmental component.

So the key tasks that I was doing, we did
an environmental foreign survey, which

basically meant that we were going out and
collecting, setting up traps to collect

all these pieces of animals to figure out
that they were doing, I think they had a,

they about a 10 or 20 year fauna program.

So every year they'd go out and
they'd track, you know, what,

what animals are here this year?

What animals, how big are they?

What, what sex are they?

And they, they had a, a really long-term
study to represent to, to see what

the changes were over that time.

So that was a really cool
program, um, to get involved in.

I was doing a lot of
auditing in terms of hydro.

I was specifically doing a
hydrocarbon audit, so, Going

round, and that was awesome.

It sounds so boring, but it was actually
so hard because I, it meant that I got

to go to every single part of the mine.

So unlike a lot of other people in
the mine, you kind of get access

to one specific area, right?

But because the risks and the safety
risks are so high, you have to do a day

induction for every single area you go to.

And mostly what I learned was there is.

Literally a million different ways you can
die in all of these seconds circumstance

with this.

Oh, so, so you're, you are, you
are kind of doing auditing, but at

the same time you're experiencing a
lot of interesting per perspective

on this.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, like every place
you go to, you've gotta be like,

this is an extremely high risk site.

This is what you need to be aware of.

This is what happens if you're
not all aware of those things.

And the whole time I was
like, this is incredible.

How do people, like, how did.

Like this is people's careers
that they do the whole time.

And it's just like you walk into a very
high risk site every single day and

the risks are huge, but like if you
manage them effectively, I guess there

was probably something that I took, I
have taken through the rest of life.

You can work in there.

There can be really high risks and really,
but if you manage those risks and put

those kind of the right controls in place,
you can manage them newly effectively.

So, yeah, I was doing hydrocarbon
orbits, which it, which basically means

I was going around and seeing whether
the or there was oil spills or petrol

spills and figuring out whether or
not they had appropriate controls in

place to manage those, those issues.

Got it.

And then just general environmental kind
of things, training and environmental

training people and environmental issues.

If there were environmental
incidences, so, You know, the

spill or a foreign of death.

So for example, like if there was
a, a kangaroo that got hit by a car,

we'd go out and check it out and
have to document it and so like,

report it, make sure it's all and,
and so that was kind of my key task.

It was fascinating.

It was a, it was a wild time that, yeah.

Really, really interesting.

And so

you said that was short-term?

That was a contract.

Yeah.

So you get that experience.

Where do you go next?

What's the next evolution of the journey?

Yeah, so then, so that was a short-term
contract with the idea was that they

were planning to roll out, extend
the contract, but then they had

massive cuts on the, on the site.

So the permanent position got cut,
which I was extremely glad about.

Cause I didn't really want to go,
I, I didn't really wanna continue.

It was an incredible experience, but it,
it wasn't where I really wanted to be.

So I then it started working for an
engineering consultancy, and again,

very lucky because I was still fairly
junior at that stage, but then ended

up having extremely unique experience.

So applied for a hundred different
roles, got offered a few, and found

this company that I was like, oh,
these guys are quite interesting.

So I started working for a company,
they were originally called West

Km, and then they got taken over by
Jacobs, which is a, a big American.

Fan and that was awesome.

Again, a lot really had the opportunity
to do heaps of different things, which

is kind of what I think is really crucial
when you're quite junior to experience

almost everything I got to work in,
you know, lots of different types of

projects, but I also got to work, work
with a lot of different specialists,

so they have hundreds and hundreds of
different specialists that most people

would never understand the name of.

They've got like a onologist
that specialize in third, they've

got a whole historical team that
specializes in different parts

of, you know, cultural heritage or
archeology or those sort of things.

But then you've got the
technical side as well.

So I was working with a lot of
electrical engineers or kind of

very specific, uh, skillsets.

And I was working in what was called
most, a lot of the stuff I did was

environmental impact assessments, which
is just become basically fundamental

to my, my experience and my expertise.

And that is basically for those
that don't know, I would say anytime

that you wanna build something.

Mm-hmm.

Whether it's a large piece of
infrastructure or a kind of a small

construction side, I guess you typically
have to get an environmental approval

from the local government or the federal
or the state, depending on how big it is.

And the bigger you get, the more complex
those environmental assessments go.

So the ones that I were working on,
I was working on were hu huge ones.

So kind of like, you know, state
defining or country defining

kind of infrastructure projects.

And once you get to that big,
once they get that big, the

environmental assessments are
extremely, extremely complex.

So, so one of the main ones that I worked
on for, I think it was a year or so, it

was a huge train tunnel, a rail tunnel
underneath Melbourne City and then it

was five different new train stations.

So it was basically a gigantic tunnel
underneath the city, and so my role

was helping to coordinate all the
environmental specialists to produce

that environmental impact assessment.

So it's a unique position and u unique
skillset to be in because basically you

need to have a good enough understanding
of all the different components,

but you don't have to be the expert.

You just need to be the person
that asks that knows enough

to ask the right question.

Right.

And so what sounds, what I'm hearing
is this history of sort of not

being a specialist allows you to
become the generalist who knows

how to put all the specialists

together.

Exactly.

And originally I thought that
was like a, was my weakness.

I originally thought it
was what my weakness.

And I remember speaking to one of my old,
um, kind of mentors about it and I was

like, you know, I don't have a specialty.

And he was like, no, your specialty is
the fact that you don't have a specialty.

Yes, you really need to work with that.

And in the beginning I was like, ah,
I don't really, I don't really get it.

But now I'm like, it, it's left me
in a really, really good position

where I can work across basically
all environmental and social areas.

Without being a specialist
in one, but knowing enough.

To provide fairly solid advice and
knowing enough to know when I don't know.

And I think that's one of the crucial
things that a lot of people don't, is

missing in kind of the environmental
and social and the sustainability gain.

A lot of people think that the specialist
scenario and maybe go far beyond what

their capabilities are, but I think
my special, one of my strengths is the

fact that I've got, I know what I know.

Oh, now I know what I don't know and I
know to who to ask when I don't know.

So a lot of the stuff I say now is like,
you can't actually figure that out.

We can't figure that out at the
moment with this level of information.

We need to go and speak
to this type of person.

Got it.

So lets go on and appoint them, and
then they can provide us with more

advice so they can inform decision.

So when I was reviewing your
LinkedIn profile, I noticed that

there's that kind of work and then
you move into investment areas.

So Green Investment ratings,
green investment Group.

Tell me a little bit about the move from
just being the generalist, who's, who's

doing more of the environmental impact,
the study, the, the kind of policy

stuff, but then there's this part of you
that's got this investment background and

I'm really intrigued by that addition.

Yeah, so that was the grain investment.

I'll give you a bit of background on it.

It started with the uk.

They were originally called the U, the
UK Grain Investment Bank, and it was a

public bank that the government set up.

It operated as a private entity, but
essentially it was using public money

to invest in, basically the idea was to
give confidence and instill confidence

in the green infrastructure space.

So renewable energies, renewable
energy was one of the major ones and

they, they made a huge difference.

They kind of.

I would say we're a huge pioneer of the,
the offshore wind industry, which is

now obviously huge, but the UK is one of
the leaders in that probably fundamental

for instilling enough kind of confidence
in the industry to make it investible.

And so what they did, because they
were government owned, they had a

huge emphasis on making sure that
everything they invested in hadn't

sound environmental and social.

Impact and all the risk were managed
and that there was, there was a

really solid framework in place.

So unlike, I guess a lot of what
happens now, they went out and they

hired environmental specialists
to sit within the bank to run that

team and establish the processes.

So when I got hired, the team was
environmental consultants and they

were environmental specialists,
which is, which was unheard of within

the banking industry at that time.

And I think, yeah, one
of the reasons that.

I got hired was the fact that I wasn't
a specialist in one particular area,

but I was very good at communicating.

Mm.

Um, which is essential when you're
moving into, I guess, the finance space

because it came as a big shock when I
got there to, to figure out the level of

understanding of the environmental and
social risks or issues and how, I guess

little there was, and probably still is,
particularly in some areas, but I'd come

from an engineering consultancy where
environmental, you know, issues were.

That, that was that bread and
butter, that's what we spoke about.

Right.

And then we got into, I got into finance
and I was like, oh, we need to consider,

you know, the environmental risk of this.

And then being like, oh, okay, I don't
really understand what that means.

I don't understand 70% of the
words that you've used in that

thing, in in that sentence.

And I'd be like, oh, okay.

You know, we'd be talking about like, so
we were, a lot of the stuff was looking

at, originally we'd looked at a lot of
offshore wind things, offshore wind.

Turbines, for example, who've had the
massive risk of colliding to give a very

practical example, colliding with birds.

So the birds fly through and
they get hit by the turbines.

Yep.

And I'd be like, oh yeah.

So I think we'd probably have to do,
um, bird strike modeling to figure

out, you know, blah, blah, blah.

And they'd be like, so what
does a bird have to do with

what we're talking about here?

Oh, okay.

And how does this fit into the investment?

You know, the business can stand, be like,
okay, so there's a huge financial, sorry,

there was a huge kind of, for me, a huge
learning in terms of like, okay, really

need to bake, take it back to basics
here, and have no assumed knowledge,

like I think, I think that's one of
the key challenges with communicating.

Particularly when we come into the
environmental and social aspects,

the level of understanding by a lot
of people is kind of very basic.

And why would they know that?

Like a lot of it's very technical staff,
which, yeah, they don't come across

in their everyday, you know, if you're
an accountant or a financial model, an

investment banker, you don't, you don't
come across this in your everyday life.

So why would you know about it?

And then great.

Now it's kind of this environmental
and social aspects of pushing their

way into the financial sector.

Yeah.

So there's a huge education piece there.

So

were you doing a lot
of the education then?

So of the investment group and then
you have these specialists in the bank?

Are you also then having to translate
that for the investment side?

Is, is that part of what you're doing?

Yeah,

a little bit.

So basically what our fundamental role was
every time they, they had a very strict,

I would call it, a sustainable investment
policy that was defined by the government.

Essentially, they had, they called
them green pillars, that basically

every investment that they made had
to align with these very specific set

of environmental and social criteria.

And so our job was make to make sure
that whatever they were investing

in aligned with that criteria.

Right.

And that's where kind of those, those
conversations would come out because

you have there, there's a couple of
kind of key things to consider here.

When you're looking at the investment
space, it's one, does that the investment

align with that sustainability policy now?

And two, will it align
with that in the future?

Mm-hmm.

So there's a few things where like you
assess it with what it looks that like

now, but you know, if you're buying
a company, what's to say next year?

You don't just change the pivot,
the type of company and you do

something completely different.

Right?

So it's about embedding kind
of the environmental and social

criteria into the way that the,
the, the transaction instruction

to make sure that that business.

Or that project remains
green into the future.

That got it.

It will continue to align with
your sustainable investment policy.

Got it.

So you've got this very broad background.

A lot of you, you, you are a generalist.

You, you also then add this layer
of investments into it and the

ability to speak in terms of that.

And then it, it appears to me you go
into what looks more like a portfolio

career where you have a whole bunch
of different things happening.

So what made the decision to go out
of being sort of an employee type

of person into more consultants?

It seems like that's
the role you're playing.

And that, that looks like in
around 2020 that started to happen.

So you've got a whole bunch of
concurrent roles showing up.

Tell me a little bit about the
move from this focus to sort of

aje a more consultative focus.

Yeah, I think, and you know what,
you've probably comes, you've probably

picked this up through the, um, what
I've kind of might previously been

saying, but I'm very much a person
who is like, Okay, I'll put myself out

there for any opportunity and see what
comes back and then capitalize on that.

So I moved to Mexico with the
grand intention of working for this

company and it didn't work out.

So I ended up in Mexico not knowing
the language, not having a visa, not

knowing really anything, and being
like, well, what am I gonna do here?

Yeah.

And then I had, I told one of, I'm leaving
the bank, uh, I'm moving to Mexico.

And she said, oh, we're
gonna start your address.

I said, Absolutely not.

I, I don't think that's for me, I'd
never really thought about that.

She's like, really?

Cause I've got all these projects
in Mexico and I think you'd be great

at it and I need somebody to do it.

And I was like, oh, I'll get back to you.

And then an old colleague called me
and she said, what are you doing now?

I said, oh, I don't really know.

I'm just trying to figure it out.

She said, why don't you, um,
why don't you join my company?

We can go on this together.

It's just me.

You and I can go on this together.

Uh, we can work together
and build this scene.

I was like, okay.

So I've got a readymade company, a good
brand, a good business partner, and.

A paying client, somebody that's
like, I will give you this project.

And so I was like, okay, you know
what, I'll just do it for the moment

and see how it went, how it goes.

And I started and it's just, yeah, it
ended up being really, really great.

So a lot of the, my original projects and
kind of one of the key things they offer

now is this e s G due diligence service.

So where financial, where investors
are looking to purchase, say.

A lot of the stuff I do is in solar,
but looking to purchase an asset in

another country, and typically the
people I work with have stringent

sustainable investment policies.

So my job is to check whether that
acquisition, whether that asset.

Aligns with their environmental,
social, and Oh, or the sustainability.

Sustainability policy and kind of in, in
a lot of them are in emerging markets.

So it's making sure that they
align with international standards.

So I went down that path and then got to
this point where you kind of own your own

business and you're like, well, I've got
so much flexibility to do whatever I want.

So we just.

Also, which you probably say on
my LinkedIn, is where I've ended

up starting Frontier as well.

So this is with ya, another business
partner and their specialty is

G I s or Earth Observation, or
kinda like satellite technology.

And we were, yeah, very close and.

I basically was talking about all the,
like I've got a good understanding

of what they do, what the E I G I S
capabilities are, because they used to

work with them quite closely when I was
working in the engineering consultancy.

And I was like, there is a massive need
for this within the financial sector,

like the, a lot of the environmental kind
of assessment or management approaches.

They, when you're dealing on large portfo
with large portfolios, you don't have

the ability to, so for example, half of
what I do is like looking very closely

at very specific environmental problems.

But you can't do that if you had,
you know, if you're think thinking

about inquiring, you know, a
hundred different assets, you don't

have the ability to go through in
detail, which is where this gis, the

satellite data kind of piece fits in.

So on that kind of large scale
environmental management and assessment,

you need that satellite tech, that data
analysis to do it on a, on a global scale.

So he and I came together with
the idea of rolling this out.

And originally, yeah, his
specialty was deforestation and.

I was like, these banks
need to be looking at one.

There's all this legislation coming
out now saying that, um, you can't, so

for example, in the UK or the eu, or
there's a couple of states in the US

as well, they're implementing rules.

That legislation that says you
can't import products that have

been derived from deforestation.

So you can't import an avocado that has
come from deforested land, uh, like.

None of these banks are doing this.

The financial industry
literally have no idea.

All if legislation's coming in.

But they don't, they don't have
the capability, they don't have

the service providers to do it.

Right.

And so we went down this deforestation
path and it turns out nobody was

really interested in deforestation.

It's like, this is, I, there
will be eventually, I was

like, this is, um, ridiculous.

Like, Anyway, but, um, it didn't really,
basically there's not a market for it yet.

I think there will be soon.

It will.

But then, yeah, but then we developed
this brand, we developed the te, we

developed all these products, and
then a thing called the task force

for nature related disclosures.

Started getting talked, talked about,
and this was beyond deforestation.

This was nature in general.

So this is biodiversity, a
component of this deforestation.

It's, you know, a protected area.

It's like biodiversity hotspots.

It's water.

And it's like, we looked at it and we were
like, This is exactly what we're doing.

They've just called it something
different, and the focus is our focus

was on deforestation and we reported
all the other stuff, whereas this is,

they're reporting all the other stuff,
but deforestation is just kind of thing.

And so we looked at item, we were like,
oh, this is what we're doing and now

everyone's really interested in it.

So that's where I'm kind of at now is
kind of interest building this business

around what's called the task force for
nature related financial disclosures

and offering that to mostly financial
institutions, but also corporate.

Got it.

So we now have a context of this
history and the work you're doing.

Let's, let's move over just a
little bit into some terminology,

cuz I think this is helpful.

I, I think terminology is often
full of a lot of diverse meaning.

And the two that you've raised
are E s G and sustainability.

Yeah.

Are sustainable finance.

And I just wanna.

Can you clarify what those two
terms mean to you in light of the

perspective that you bring to them?

Yeah.

Cause I, I think that's really
helpful because so often I, it's

like you said earlier, people throw
around the terms, but they don't

even know what they're talking about.

Yeah.

You know what you're talking about.

So what, what do those terms mean to you,
and how do they uniquely intersect for

you?

Yep.

And I, yeah, I think it's an excellent
question because as you've said, I

think a lot of people use these terms,
but the meaning has become lost.

Yes.

Or confused along the way, and I
think there are some fundamental

difference, but as you've said,
there's a lot of crossover.

So essentially for me, E S G or
environmental, social and governance,

it's a, it's a risk management and
approach it, it originated, I think

it originated within the financial
sector, this kind of concept of E S G.

I think it originally was coined in
a UN paper called Who Cares, wins.

Which describes the link between
e s G and business success?

So, e sg ultimately and fundamentally,
I think is a, it's a risk management

approach that considers environmental
social risks of a business or

a transaction or a project.

So it considers, you know, environmental
risks that associated with, say, water.

We're looking at environment,
water, climate change,

deforestation, biodiversity.

We're looking at social risks.

You've got the external social risks,
like what impact is your product,

your business having on this community
or this protected group of people,

this indigenous group of people.

And then you also, from the site
social perspective as well, it's kind

of like what risks are associated
with the people that work for you?

So internally, a lot of people,
I think when we look at.

The social component of E S G.

A lot of companies focus on that
internal component, which is like, you

know, what's happening with my workers?

How many jobs am I offering?

You know, what quality of their
condition, the condition of

work, which is really important.

And that kind of external social
one that I previously, previously

mentioned about like what impact
is our product or our right project

having on the community is often lost.

And then the government
governance risks as well.

So governance is around how
is the project the business.

Actually run.

It looks at things such as tax issues,
anti-corruption and bribery issues.

And I would say like how the board
is run, is it an independent company?

That sort of thing.

I would say that is, Fairly well
from a governance perspective

that's been around for a long time.

Yeah, that's, there are fairly
in entrenched legislation

around that already.

Environmental is growing.

There's kind of really core, core focus
on at the moment and there's environmental

legislation out there that's social side
is still, I would say, in its infancy.

It's getting there.

Mm-hmm.

There's a big focus on it, but we're
still, I would say we've spent kind

of the last 10 years trying to figure
out what is the social goal for us.

And we had, like the UN SDGs, for
example, the UN sustainable Development

Goals kind of defined what we want
to get, and now we're trying to

figure out how we actually get there.

So, so how does e S G then tied us?

Because you've, you've.

Connected the dot, but how does
E S G tie to sustainability?

Yeah,

so well, if we go back to your
original sustainable finance Yep.

I would say sustainable
finance on the other hand, is

about shifting capital away.

So shifting money away from actions or
products or activities that result in

environmental or socially negative impact.

Ah, and towards, you wanna shift that
catheter towards, Environmentally

or socially positive outcomes.

Mm-hmm.

And so for that, for me, sits
within the financial sector mostly.

And at the moment that's the
sustainable finance piece is kind

of, that's about kind of incremental
change that's happening within banks

or investment companies or financial
institutions in general, but ultimately

sustainable finance way that just like
this, the ultimate goal is transform

transformational change where.

The financial system ends up yet
completely shifting so that it's not,

it's no longer called sustainable finance.

It's just the way finance operates.

It's the way that we're, we're then
funneling all our capital towards

things that we want, things that
have really positive impacts.

And the f the interconnectedness there is
the fact that E S G forms a fundamental

component of sustainable finance.

So to assess and kind of
figure out, manage the risks.

Of sustainable finance or
finance in general, or projects.

It's doing that e s G component, which
ends up assessing and managing the

environmental and social risk so that
you can sort of like recognize, you can

manage and you can ultimately shift away.

You can ultimately figure out what's
positive, what's negative, and how do we

get to that kind of more positive angle.

Got it.

But yeah, there's.

There's kind of a lot of confusion.

Yes.

No, but it, but I think it's really
helpful to, to clarify that because,

because when, when you get that sense
of it, then that helps me to understand

how you process it with a client.

But, but maybe to help me, just one more
step or help us as we listen to you,

can you give us an example of how that
translates either from a client of yours

that you are comfortable sharing or an
example that we might, it might help

us to be aware of the example of E S G.

In a specific thing that then affects
capital and how capital moves towards

a better outcome, a more sustainable
outcome versus a A one that's not.

And and do you have an example of
that that you've worked on that you're

aware of that you could share with

us?

Yes, for sure.

So if we think about an
investor that invests.

In renewable energy.

So ultimately the idea is that they're
putting capital into renewable energy,

which ultimately leads into positive
outcomes versus the alternatives.

And that, I guess you could say they're
working in sustainable finance because

they're putting money into that.

But a component of that to make sure that
what they're investing in aligns with

our positive, what we think is positive.

They do an e SG assessment.

So we do ESG due diligence.

So my role is doing the E S
G due diligence on that, them

acquiring a specific asset.

So what I would do is I'd go through
and I'd assess all the environmental

and social and governance risk.

So there.

Purchasing a solar farm.

Yep.

But is the solar farm
located in the right place?

Have, is that solar farm
in a protected area?

Have they built it on agricultural land?

Have they built it on, you know, is it,
is it situated on an indigenous community?

Is it, is it within a community that's
gonna have massive impacts to their,

you know, I, I probably don't wanna live
directly adjacent to a, um, a solar farm.

So it's about identifying the specific
environmental and social and governance

risks with that specific acquisition.

And then part of it, When I do this,
unlike, so if we take water, for example,

uh, like a fairly easy one is water.

If has it got good drainage?

No, you probably need to put drainage in.

Otherwise you're gonna flood.

Flood, you know, the
protected area next door.

As part of that, you're probably
gonna have to put in a hundred

or like, let's say $10,000.

So put in specific drainage and then
that comes back to the financial aspect.

So when they then gotta purchase the,
the asset, you're like, okay, well I

know that I need to put $50,000 worth
of, uh, environmental controls in.

Mm-hmm.

So I will factor that in when I offer,
when I make my offer of purchase, I'll

subtract thousand dollars cuz I know that
I'm gonna have to put $50,000 into it.

Got it.

So the e s G component
is managing the risks?

Yes.

But the sustainable financing is
the whole, is basically the whole

transaction.

Got it.

Okay.

That, that helps immensely.

Good.

So let's, let's go into more of the
topic of this podcast, which the topic

is you, but, and all of this perspective.

But how do you see the adoption
of E S G and the risk around

that in advisory board worlds?

I know you've been in, involved
in advisory, in the advisory board

space for a while, but, but is there
a hunger for a strategic person

sitting on a board related to E S G?

This e S G risk, thinking
about sustainable finance?

Is it, are you seeing a hunger

for it?

Yeah, massively.

There's a few different elements to that.

One is the huge, I would say
one of the key drivers is

the ma, how rapids happened.

Which has come about because of
say, legislation and regulation.

So there's a huge amount of, um, like
there's a tidal wave of regulation coming

in, particularly in Europe, and that is
slowly going across the rest of the world.

But in particularly in some regions,
there's really strong legislation

coming in and in other regions they're
talking about it and it's basically

lifting the whole industry up.

So even though say most of the
legislation's coming in Europe,

you still feel the effects of
it in say, Australia and the us.

So the legislation piece is huge.

The consumer awareness piece
and the shareholder action piece

has become really huge as well.

So we're seeing that translate into
product choices or shareholder action

whereby, you know, there's some
really great examples in the past

where, Shell, for example, they now
had, there was a massive shareholder

action campaign whereby they've
ended up electing to the board of

directors, I think there's maybe four
of them now, which are climate actives

that they're called like activists.

They're board members that are, wow.

You know?

Yeah.

So for, for some of the
largest, uh, fossil fuel.

Companies, they now have climate
change activists that are

sitting on their board interest.

So this climate cha, the, the kind
of shareholder pressure and the

consumer pressure has resulted in,
you know, a massive shift as well.

And, and then we have kind of
industry just picking up on that.

And you have industry leaders kind of
like, or maybe not industry leaders,

but large businesses acting on that.

So you have all these companies coming
out saying, oh, we're gonna be net zero,

we're gonna be this, we're gonna be that.

And because these large companies have
said it, it's created this competition

in their laughing place and kind
of raised the industry standard.

And because of this massive shift, which
just happens so quickly, there are a

lot of companies out there that are
like, I don't even know what ESG means.

How the hell am I meant
to respond to this?

So they.

There's a massive shift into people
being like, okay, we need to set up,

say an advisory board, or we need to
get specialist help in this because,

you know, I've got a, we, we have a
client who, a great example is they,

they say, um, they were printing
like the Disney or Pixar, like.

Images onto like pencil cases and
backpacks and that sort of thing.

And then they, they came and said,
um, we need help because the license

saws, the license saws, the people
that own the pictures have come to

us and said, we're only issuing the
licenses to those people that can beat

this sustainable investment standards.

And then they also had their distributors.

So the, the shops that they stock
in, They, the shops came back

to them and said, we're only
stocking products that meet these

environmental assessment standards.

So, and then there was another one.

So basically, and they're consumers
and they're all of, they were getting

all these different pressures.

They also had legislation that said,
you need to report against this.

And they were like, yeah.

So, um, we've just realized that we can
no longer operate, like as of next year,

we won't be able to sell to any of these.

We won't have the product to
print, um, and we won't be

able to meet this legislation.

So we really need assistance.

Now, so these sort of companies
are setting up advisory boards to

help them through those challenges.

Yeah.

And

you're seeing it based on
your unique view of the world.

You're seeing that sort of come from
just like large shell oil kind of

companies down into people who are
building and creating product and

selling product in the marketplace.

It's starting to actually, um, become
more ubiquitous, it sounds like.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

But I would say there's a, it's
very geographically dependent.

Mm-hmm.

I would say in kind of the, uh,
developed economies, like say if we

look at Europe, look at Australia,
the US we're talking about them, that

that is happening across the economy.

So you have larger businesses and you've
got medium sized businesses and smaller

businesses that are really getting on
board this cuz they're like, they're

really experiencing those pressures.

But if you get into, say, emerging markets
or say if we look at Mexico for example,

I would say that that is only happening
at the, say the top 20% of businesses.

Your larger businesses are
experiencing those pressures.

But the, the smaller kind of, the
80% of the, you know, cuz like Mexico

for example, is most of the economy
is made up by very small businesses.

Right?

Right.

They don't have, they don't
experience those same pressures.

Yeah.

So it's very much
geographically dependent.

But I would say that those kind of
key developed countries are going

through that and they all need, they're
all seeking E S G or sustainability

support.

And so when they need it, say in an
advisory board structure, are they tending

to want it more as a short-term project
where you get us up to speed and then help

us across the finish line or get started?

Or is it more they need somebody.

Sitting on a perpetual seat
continually reminding of that?

Or is it a little bit of both?

Depending on the size of the

business.

So typically the way it works is the,
the original piece of work is that,

that first one, short term, and they're
like, oh, we just need help with this.

We're just gonna roll out an ESG
strategy and then we'll be done.

And then we always find that at the end
of that, they go, actually, this is a

lot bigger than we thought it would be.

This is actually a lot more complex.

So, I think we're actually gonna
either have to hire someone or keep the

advisory board going for a longer term.

So ultimately we see success, particularly
from the, um, from my consulting

perspective, we see success is when they
recognize that they probably need to hire

someone full-time because it's, it, it's
not just one project if for For it to

be successful and managed effectively.

It, it is a long-term process.

So the advisory board role typically
ends up being, you know, a few years at

least till they get it fully embedded.

So I, I know that you are, you
are involved in this, and so when

you personally sit on an advisory
board, what's the, what's the

unique angle that you're bringing?

Obviously this unique history, but if
you're sitting on a project advisory

board that's kind of set up to get this.

Started and moving in a company, does
it go back to your former days of

being a generalist and knowing how
to pull the right people together

and put them related to this project?

Or are you bringing now a different
perspective to it than maybe just purely

historical, which is that generalist?

Are you bringing more of, of the,
let me call you the village elder.

Like are you bringing that ki
like I, I'm, I'm just interested

in, in what that unique role
you play on the board might be.

Yeah, so I think it ends up being
a bit of both because the kind of

historic experience that I have means
that I'm able to point out risks.

Mm-hmm.

But the kind of village elder approach
is, goes beyond that to the point where

it's like, where it's, um, being able to
provide kind of strategic advice on how

best to manage that risk or how best to
set up the system to manage that risk.

Ultimately, at the end of the day, These
guys know their company better than I do.

so it's about, as you said, kind of
leveraging the right people within

the organization and figuring out
who should be doing it and assigning

kind of responsibilities to the
people that already exist in there.

A really good example is Net Zero.

Lots of companies committed to it.

They've gone out publicly and
said it, but the kind of, the, the

thinking piece has not been done.

It's like, okay, so you've thought you,
you've committed to it, but have you

thought about how you're gonna do it
and who within the business is going

to do it, and what, what steps do you
need to take to get to that point?

And so it's about sitting, sitting
down with them and saying, okay,

well let's look at the business.

Who have you got working for you?

Who, what resources do you have?

Whose responsibility, what and how can
they assist to achieve your net zero goal?

And that kind of thinking and helping
them along the way to, to navigate

that path is kind of one of the key.

The key things.

Got it.

So just help me there, because
you used a term that may, like,

I, I talk to CEOs all the time.

This is part of what I do, and I'm
not even sure what Net Zero means.

I, I heard, oh, that's
such a good coin, isn't it?

How you explained it.

And so what's Net zero?

Yeah, so

it's a, it's a good question.

And another only one of those terms
that people keep whipping out without

knowing exactly what it means.

But basically a company should get to
the point where, They are no longer

producing emissions and where they're,
uh, so carbon emissions, for example.

Yeah.

And what, where the challenge is and
where the confusion comes from is.

Net zero.

So when you look at emissions, there's
scope one on two or three emissions.

Scope One is like the emissions
that you get from the power that's

coming that you, your company uses.

So are you using renewable energy?

Are you using a coal fire, PowerPoint?

What emissions are coming out of that?

And then you've got scope two, which
is kind of the secondary thing.

So it's like, okay, my
employee drives to work, right?

What a mission of coming out of
that car when they drive to work.

And then the scope three, which
is where the really complicated

comes when things come in.

It's like, okay, so I have this product.

What emissions are my
users of that product?

What emissions are associated
with them using the product?

And that part is, at this stage, really,
really hard for a lot of industries.

So when you look at this net zero
thing, are we talking about scope one?

We just talking about, okay, I've
got, I've committed to going net zero.

Does that mean I just only need, uh,
renewable energy and then I've, I'm done.

Is that scope two?

So it means that all of my, all of my
employees will now be coming to work by

buy, or is it scope three where I'm, I'm
making sure that the product that I have

doesn't have any associated admissions.

So let's talk about like
packaging, for example.

Mm-hmm.

Like the, does my customer
have the opportunity?

To take the waste and turn it
into something else really useful.

I don't know.

Right.

So going back to how you explained it,
then, part of having experts advise

you if you're in this position is,
I want to be net zero, but you don't

even know those three scopes, and you
don't even often know what you are

talking about when you claim a net zero
status or you claim a net zero goal or

plan.

Yeah, so often their first advice,
often the first step when I sit

on one of these board is, okay,
net zero, that sounds great.

Um, now where are your emissions
coming from and how much do you

know how much you're emitting?

They're like, oh, we haven't done,
we, we need to figure it out.

Out.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, okay, well step
one, let's figure out what your

actual carbon emissions are.

And then step two is we can start
figuring out what are we gonna

do out those carbon emissions.

But a lot of companies, A lot of
companies have committed to going

net zero, but haven't done step one.

So they're like, yeah, we're gonna get rid
of all carbon emissions and say, oh, okay.

Very, very ambitious.

I love it.

So, yeah, so helpful.

Let's, uh, let's imagine
a c e O comes to you.

They, they happen to hear this
conversation and they come to you

and say, I need to do something with
E S G in the risk associated with

that because I'm recognizing that
there is some laws coming, um, that

are now gonna affect me, or I've got
clients of mine who are demanding it.

From either an advice perspective
or an advisory board structure, what

recommendations would you give a c e
O who came to you with this concern?

What, what would, what
would the first steps be?

Good question.

It would be, first of all, well,
what resources do you have in-house?

Because then that would inform whether
or not you'd set up an advisory

board or whether you'd have to do,
say, like a consulting project.

Because if they already have
a fairly good structure, mm.

In place and they've got resources
available, then you could set up an

advisory board and you say, okay, we can
look at the problem that you've, what

the challenge that you've got, and we can
figure out how within the resources that

you've already got, we can approach that.

Maybe you do need still external
consultancies and external consultants.

But that's a fairly, if you've got some
good resources and you've got a good

setup in place already, then we can
start by setting up an advisory board,

breaking it down, and figuring it out
kind of in-house, kind of at that.

I would say the kind of the governance
level in terms of, yep, working with them.

But then if you've got.

If the problem is, you know, I
look at the organization and I'm

like, oh wow, you don't like there?

There's not a lot of capability
or capacity within this

organization to address the issue.

Then maybe you go down that kind of.

Appointing a consultant route to do the
kind of the groundwork, and then later on

you can set up that advisory board when
you've actually got enough information

to figure out what needs to be done.

Okay, so, so it's really, you've
gotta do the groundwork really

to get some degree of stability
before even potentially an advisory

board can support you with that, it

sounds like.

Yeah, I would say that for sure.

So I mean, if we go back to this
net zero issue, that first step

of saying, okay, well, Have you
done your carbon accounting?

Do you know where your
carbon emissions are?

Let's do that first.

Appoint an a con consultant to figure
that out first, and then afterwards,

yeah, we can set up an advisory board
to figure out how you, you'd actually.

Respond to that within the business,
but at the moment, you're going

in not really knowing anything.

Yeah.

You don't have enough
information to make it.

Yeah,

because the advisory board's
gonna say the same thing, right?

An advisory board or that
structure is going to say, well,

what's, what's the reality?

What's the data that we're working

for?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But if you've done that,
that first component, you can

set up the advisory board.

In a better manner and kind of with
a clearer structure if you've got the

information to feed to them first.

So, good.

Well, this has been really helpful and I
mean, I, I feel like you've illuminated

even my thinking on so much of this,
and I feel like, uh, I'm, I'm always

trying to learn, but so many things
you've said today are things that,

that I feel like I need help with.

So thank you for that.

I, I always like to end with, you
know, we start with getting to know

you personally and then I'd like to
end with just some fun extra questions.

So, I'm just gonna throw
some fast questions at you.

You can answer them or not answer
them, but just, just gimme a

sense of your answer to this.

So, uh, Mac or pc?

Mac.

Okay.

My Mac is 10 years old, just, and
that is why I still manage to run.

I do have a new one, but I still manage
to run two businesses off a Mac and.

I don't think that's a
possibility with a pc.

Right.

You know, the new PC every two years.

Right.

How would your closest family members
likely define, and let's say you said

your brother, I think you said your
brother lives in Mexico, uh, with you.

How would he define what
you do in the world?

Oh, such a good question.

Cause most people don't understand it.

Um, that's a good question.

Um, how would he define what I do?

I think he would say, I help companies
become more sustainable and work something

to do with financial institutions as well.

Making them become more sustainable too.

Got it.

Okay.

What book has shaped you
more than any other book?

Oh yeah, that's a, um, yeah,
it's a really hard question.

Just mostly because I've just finished
a book and I can't stop thinking.

No.

I just finished a book called Still Life.

Um, And still

life is about, what is that?

A fiction or non-fiction?

It's a fiction book, and it's about,
um, it basically follows the, the

story as, um, these two people and
one of them ends up living in Italy.

And that's shaped my life because I've
drunk a lot more wine since reading

it because every kind of scene is
like, eh, they sit down for a bottle

of wine because they're in Italy.

Have you used chat G P T?

And if you have, what was the
first question you asked it?

Oh, yes, I have.

The first question I asked,
I think it was, how do I get

a police check in Mexico?

It gives you very, I needed to get one
done for a, a project I'm working on,

and it gives you very detailed, uh,
it's my go-to about how do I do this?

And it's like, go to this website,
click on that link, download this

file, fill that for me in, take it to
this office, located at this place.

Excellent.

Take about.

Uh, and final question, what's your
favorite web or phone app that gives you

the highest return on your investment?

Is there an app that you use
that gives you really good stuff?

Um, I mean, it's just the news apps.

Okay.

I spend a lot of time on the news apps.

Does it gimme good
return for my investment?

I mean, probably the time the
costs is to get the Bloomberg out.

I don't get it anymore, but I actually
think I probably will get back at.

Get back into it.

But yeah, probably news apps.

Is there any, this is a
very boring answer for you.

Yeah, no, it's, it's great cuz everybody,
every, everybody has a unique one

that, that they tend to love and spend
a lot of time on, so that's fabulous.

Well, I have to say, this
has been delightful, Bridget.

It's uh, really good to get to
know you, your perspective, your

way of thinking about the world.

All of this unique history that you
have, this generalist environmental

stuff that led into finance, that's
leading you to be a significant advisor

in the e s G space and, uh, as it
relates to, uh, sustainable finance.

And so thank you for being with us today
on the podcast and continue success.

We'll make sure all of
your links are, are listed.

Any final words from you

if you're not already thinking
about a s g or sustainability?

Get into it.

It seems very overwhelming.

And a lot of people think it's very
expensive, but that is not the case in

my, in my opinion, I think it's more
about sustainability ends up being

basically the cheapest way to operate.

So get in touch if you
need a, if you need a hand.

Beautiful.

Thank you again so much.

And, uh, we will, uh, we will enjoy,
uh, watching what happens as you,

uh, as you continue your practice.

Excellent.

Thank you so much, Tom.

Enjoy the rest of your day.