Alan Mackenzie, welcome to the
Advisory Board Insider podcast.

I'm glad you're here.

It's great to connect with you again.

Tom.

I good friend.

yeah.

It's uh, really cool.

So, you and I had our very first
conversation almost 25 years ago, I

would say about 24 years ago, where
I interviewed you on my TV show,

And I was intrigued by, by what you
were doing at that point in time.

And I feel like it's a, it's
another chance to catch up on all

of the amazing things you're doing
in your world and in your life.

So, before we get started what are
your geographic coordinates today?

Where are you located?

So right now I'm in my, my home office
or my home studio, I like to call it.

And I'm in Guelph, Ontario, Canada.

And so Guelph is a little
northwest of Toronto, about an

hour's drive northwest of Toronto.

It's a beautiful small city of
120,000 watts, parks and waterways.

And, and where I live, it's literally
um, a five minute walk or a two minute

bike ride, and we're onto a nice trail
by the Speed River and up to Guelph

Lake, and it's just a beautiful little
part of South Southwestern Ontario.

Wonderful.

So we know where you are.

what do you start your day with?

Let's go back and start your day.

What's your drink of choice?

Start your day.

Well, right now, I mean, it's springtime,
so I'm in a little bit of a, a cleanse

courtesy of my significant other.

Carmen.

Uh, She likes to put us on a spring
cleanse, but normally, you know, my drink

of choice these days seems to be a, hot
chai tea with coconut milk and fro up

with a little bit of cinnamon on top.

And I just like those mixtures
of spices and it's just kind of

a nice, warm, comforting drink to
kind of get the morning started.

so is this like your own concoction or
is this a, is this a sort of a chai?

I don't, I don't know.

Is it like a teabag kind of thing?

What's, what's the process?

Well, you can, you can get it at
your local Starbucks, you can get it

there, and sometimes I get it there.

But we also have our, our own tea bags
and we'll, we'll brew it up and then we'll

just pour it in with the mixture, with
the coconut milk and it's just, just,

and then heat it up and it fro it up.

And it's great to have.

this morning you, you've got me in
my Be happy mug, just having water.

So,

got it.

Okay.

So, Uh, gimme a sense of
what your day starts like.

And I realize because you're a professor,
a teaching professor, you may be in

a different space now in summertime
than you are normally, but if you

could sort of average your days out,
what's, what's the morning look like?

What's your morning routine
typically look like?

morning routine.

Even when I'm teaching, I try to get
my classes a little later in the day

cuz I like to kind of come into the
morning sort of in a relaxed fashion.

Uh, You know, we have quite an
extensive backyard with lots of trees

and, and perennials and, for whatever
reason our backyard has taken the

interest of all the local wildlife.

And so our morning for both of us
is, you know, having a nice tea.

But we're usually racing
around feeding the birds.

We have chipmunks who show up to our door.

We have uh, squirrels.

We have a special squirrel.

Of course, Carmen has, has named them all.

Winnie.

And Winnie is a pretty
special zen squirrel.

She, she came around two years ago and
she sometimes comes in and sits in our

kitchen while we're eating breakfast,
and she eats her breakfast there too.

Wow.

That is uh, that is interesting.

A squirrel for breakfast.

Uh, The other thing is last year,
just unbeknownst to us, one day,

this little fledgling northern
Starling came in and took a shine to

Carmen, my, my wife, and also to me.

And we started feeding her and
she hung around all summer.

She left for the fall, she migrated
and we thought, well, maybe

she'll be back, maybe she won't.

sure enough, she came back literally three
weeks ago and is in the same routine.

And so she'll literally land on our
arm and eat some, you know, we, we've

got the meal worms that we've got for
her or raisins, and she'll eat those.

She's now feeding them to her young.

Sometimes if Carmen isn't quick enough
and she leaves the screen door open,

it will actually fly in and land on
her shoulder, like kind of hurry up.

You know, I, I want my

breakfast now, so,

so my morning, you know, our mornings
are pretty busy for the first couple

of hours from sort of 6:00 AM till
about nine 30, and then the, the frenzy

sort of goes away, and then I kind
of drift into my professional day.

So it's a nice interlude
into the work life.

I have never heard that before.

That is fascinating.

So, let's get a bit of your story.

I'm gonna dive into your story a bit.

So I looked in your LinkedIn profile
and it seems like just before 1984,

so I'm thinking, you know, early
eighties is probably end of high

school zone for you, wherever that is.

But just kind of go
back in your mind there.

What are you thinking about,
what's the plans for the future?

What, is going on in your world in
terms of goals, aspirations, and where

you're thinking your life will take you?

Yeah, in my, that's
really going back away.

So it is you know, making the gray
matter work, but certainly in my

early years, I, I mean, I've always
had a love of the outdoors and, and

exploring nature in wild places.

And I wanted to be, you
know, a a an outdoor guy.

So taking people on canoe trips,
rock climbing, mountain climbing.

And so even in my high school years, I
was, taking courses and training and, and

trying to go out and do things on my own.

We, we lived, my parents lived on a, a
body of water called the Bay of Quinte.

just east of here, a couple of hours
between Trenton and, and Belleville.

Cuz my father was uh, retired
from the military there.

And, and so, you know, I learned,
taught myself how to canoe.

I taught my house myself how to cross
country ski and, and all of those things.

And then, you know, as I moved into my
senior year of high school, I, I, before

I really got into going to university
and doing those things, I actually.

Went out west and continued my training.

I got into becoming an
assistant mountain guide.

I eventually became a, a rescue specialist
with the Alberta government for a year

and did that and so, you know, I, I
really, cuz that was really my focus.

It wasn't about business at all.

It wasn't even on my radar screen.

I just wanted to spend the rest of my
time outside helping other people enjoy

the outdoors and enjoying it myself.

So you, take on, you learn, you
get those certifications and those

designations and then your, your LinkedIn
profile tends to indicate you start

down that path of being sort of an
adventure guide, an outdoor adventure.

Give me a sense of those early days
in adventure tourism, adventure travel

what were some of the deep lessons
you're learning early on before even

the business thing starts to emerge?

There's, I can only imagine there's really
intense cool lessons that you get from

rescuing people off mountains dealing
with, you know, these kind of challenging

situations out in the wilderness.

well, you certainly become an
appreciation of, of your humanness.

I don't know how else to say it.

You know, whenever I go to the outdoors,
I always, you know, if you find yourself

filled with ego, just spend some time
in the wilderness, you know, that ego

drifts away pretty quickly because it
doesn't really care about you as a person.

It just does what it does,
and you have to adapt.

So I think, you know, that leads me to
the other one is, is, you know, how do

you, how do you adapt to your conditions?

How do you recognize when you have
capabilities to do sometimes do

things, and when there are times that.

You know, maybe this isn't the
best day to go to the top, or, you

know, that thunderstorm's coming
down the valley pretty fast.

The snow conditions are strange.

You know, maybe it's just time
to, you know, stay a little

lower and enjoy the valley today.

You know, kind of making those
critical decisions that can literally

be life and death and, you know, as
opposed to kind of just making general

decisions in, in your normal day.

The other thing that.

you know, I've taken forward into
my career is I'm always amazed when

other, when I'm helping other people
enjoy the outdoors, especially couples.

I can tell really quickly in a short
period of time, especially if somebody,

you know, you know, a couple has been
together just for a short period of time.

There may, maybe they just got married
or they've been married for a little

while and we're in an outdoor activity.

Whether that's, you know, climbing
or whitewater canoeing where

they have to work together.

I could tell pretty quickly where
they're gonna run into problems

down the road if they don't do
some address some of these concerns

pretty

well get, That,

they they lose their ego.

Ego.

yeah, gimme an exam.

Like gimme a real world example of that.

So I had a couple, you
know, whitewater canoeing.

I always enjoy teaching
people whitewater canoeing.

And before we ever go down the river,
we, we spend a day in a, in a sort of

easy set of rapids and we, they get used
to how the canoe moves in the whitewater

and it's really more about shifting their
weight and, you know, and recognizing

the canoe in itself is, is not.

Necessarily safe, you've gotta adjust.

It's like on your bike,
you've gotta move to the, the

movement of where you're going.

And so, you know, you'll have somebody in
the, the back of the canoe, the stern in

the canoe, you know, kind of calling out
the commands and where they have to go.

And then the person in the bow or
the front of the canoe is really,

you know, they're either paddling
madly or they're reaching out with

their, paddle to brace against the
ways that are bouncing them around to

act like, almost like an outrigger.

And it's, it's funny, you know, when,
when I see people, they're trying to

communicate with each other, they get
into these arguments, go, no, I'm not

gonna do this now, or, or that's too late.

And, and there's, they
spend their time arguing.

The next thing you know, their
canoe slipped over and they're

drifting down the, the river.

And it's just fascinating to
watch, and when we taught that.

We would videotape people and
people wouldn't believe us when,

you know, I'd, rescue them and
pull 'em back into their canoe.

It was pretty standard practice.

It's not a not a scary thing, you
know, they get up and do it again.

They're soaking wet, but
that's the way it is.

And I say to them, you know, you've
gotta really get your signals correct.

Oh, oh yeah, we're doing
that, we're doing that.

And then, you know, later on in the
evening, we'd go out to dinner and,

and we went to this special restaurant
near the Matas River where we did

our, a lot of our teaching in Ontario.

And, you know, we'd put up a TV
screen and plug in, you know, back

in the day when their VHS d tapes.

And we'd plug in the tape and they would
see themselves and hear themselves.

And they would just be astonished at
how poor they were at communicating,

or that they were kind of barking at
each other and not really listening.

It was really interesting to watch.

It was very humbling for

'em.

That's

for

Yeah, I bet, I bet.

So it seems to me then and when I
first intersected with you, it was

with when you had a company called
the adventure begins, and it seems

like right in that timeframe you were
marrying outdoor adventure to business.

So what kind of transitioned you
into a more a business focus versus

purely an outdoor adventure focus?

Yeah, so the, the early days of
the adventure begins was just

that it was very outdoor focused.

It was kind of a training and development
company for people wanting to learn

outdoor skills to go out and so they
could experience it on their own.

They wouldn't have to go out with,
you know, in my early years I would

guide people and, and they, so they
could go out without a guide, whether

that was a wilderness canoe trip.

To go rock climbing, to go
mountaineering those types of things.

So we taught a whole lot of
fundamental skills from climbing to

canoeing, to navigation wilderness
first aid, those types of things.

And then we started to get contacted
by corporations, mostly through,

people that I graduated with.

And they'd gone on and moved on to
their careers and they were with

companies and, you know, we remain
friends and they're like, Hey, you

know, can you take our group, you
know, rock climbing for the day?

Or can you go take us on a high ropes
course, do some experiential learning?

that's the time we sort of met,
we were, we're kind of growing

that side of the business.

So there was kind of the, For
a better word, the public side.

And then there was the corporate
side that we were growing.

And even that morphed again, where
all of a sudden people were asking

about, well, you seem to be really,
yeah, I'll never forget this.

we were finishing off one of our
climbing days and one of our climbing

instructors Vic was going out with
a woman who worked at Ontario Hydro.

She was a senior engineer
and manager at Ontario Hydro.

And we would always finish
our day with a, with a debrief

and, we would facilitate that.

Just, you know, what went well,
what could we improve on, you know,

before we all, went out and enjoyed
a beer at the local pub and just

take in the, the rest of the weekend.

And afterwards, you know, I was sitting
beside her and she, we were having a beer

and she said, I've worked at Hydro for
10 years and I've never seen a manager

facilitate a session like you guys do.

Your instructor debriefs.

Can you come and teach that to us?

and that spawned just a
whole other direction.

And what that ended up doing in the
adventure begins was we then became a

training and development company, but more
in the ideas of soft skill development,

how to facilitate a conversation, how
to have a difficult conversation, how to

bring on new employees, how to deal with
conflict and give constructive feedback.

And so we had these mini sessions, a as
well as we continued on our experiential

learning division in using outdoor
activities to bring teams together.

Cuz that was a time when lots of
companies were merging or, or there was

mergers and acquisitions and they were
buying up each other and, and now you'd

have a whole bunch of people together
that didn't really know each other.

How could they come together quicker?

And we used outdoor activities
and then ongoing training sessions

afterwards to improve the output or the
performance of those groups and teams.

And it seems like from there you
move fully into the business side.

Instead of focusing on the adventure
side and ad using adventure as a, as

a toolkit to personal development and
even business development, it seems like

from there you move fully into business
focus training development work uh,

support, consulting, those kind of things.

So give me a sense of the journey
from there to where you are now

as the professor of leadership and
management, a teaching professor of

leadership and management at the.

Booth School of Engineering at
McMaster University in Hamilton.

So like there's a whole lot of
world in there from when you and I

first met to where you are sitting
as a professor now at a major

university in Canada in leadership.

And I get the leadership and that
part of it, leadership and management.

I get it.

But give me the journey because
I think it's, it's important for

people wanting to know who you are
to understand the morphing of the

adventure guy to the business training
guy to now a professor of leadership.

Give me the short story on that.

Sure.

The short story, I'll try
to give you the short story.

Well, you know,

year thing, so I I get

yeah.

So how do we, how do we put it in?

Depending on your audience age, you
know, the Cole's Notes version of this.

well, the Adventure begins, there
was an opportunity to sell that

organization, so I took advantage of that.

And we actually calfed
off the two divisions.

So we had our public outdoor training,
which we sold to another person

who was beginning that journey and,
and that accelerated that for them.

And then another larger organization
wanted to incorporate our experiential

they were doing part of that as well,
but more the soft skills training.

And so we sold that division to them.

And so that left me at
a bit of a crossroads.

And so at the same time, you
know, I was getting involved in,

enhancing my own learning journey.

You know, I was taking HR
and became HR certified.

I was working you know, kind of part-time
in, in those areas for a few companies.

And one of the things I
recognized was, There was lots of

organizations that really didn't
know how to scale themselves.

And and that spawned a whole other company
that I created uh, starting with a,

couple of partners and then eventually
on my own called Empower Business Guides.

that was really dealing with you know,
small and medium size enterprises and

going in and helping them develop the
structure around their organization

so that they could scale and grow
without imploding or, you know, worse

the business owner, getting sick
or, you know, worse having a heart

attack, something like that because it
was just too much to, to look after.

And I, I used a number of different
tools to assist with that process.

I started that model.

More on a coaching kind
of guiding perspective.

But then again based on demands, there
was more of a, a demand for us to

actually insert us into organizations
and actually build systems and

processes for, you know, maybe a couple
of years or, or guide the managers

and organizations in how to do that.

And then we would pull ourselves out
and so I did that for almost a decade.

Wow.

what happened was I missed the
kind of training and development,

and I started to get involved in,
you know, I became HR certified.

I'm an HR certified professional both
here in Canada as well as globally.

And I, wanted to give back, and so
I got involved in teaching at local

colleges and, and for your American
listeners, those would be institutions

that offer associate degrees.

So usually two year degrees, very
hands-on and practical education.

And so I would get involved in, in
teaching courses to people who wanted,

who were aspiring to be HR professionals.

It's always teaching, training,
development compensation strategy,

all of those types of courses.

I really enjoyed it, but I was
doing it on a part-time basis

and then, For whatever reason, I
caught the eye of a, a university

called Wilford Laurie University.

Somebody in the organizational
behavior department heard about

my teaching and asked me to come
teach a course with them one fall,

which I did and I really enjoyed.

That was nature and management course.

And then an opportunity came on
for a full-time position there.

And I took that on as a, a lecturer
and did that for two and a half years.

And then at the same time, I'm
not a linear career path person.

I, I do things uh, at the same time.

you know, I could be doing
this, but I'm also doing that.

And at the same time, I was also teaching.

In a, a program that was just
starting at McMaster in, I'll call

the Bachelor Technology program.

And I, I got that connection because
it's connected to a college and

the students get both a university
degree and a college diploma.

And so I started teaching there
part-time as well as I was doing, you

know, my, my full-time gig at Laurie.

And then the director of that program
asked me, he goes, you know, we've

been doing this for five years.

We need somebody to come in and
audit all the management courses.

It's a really unique engineering program,
Tom, because most engineering programs

are very technically oriented, but then
engineers go out into the real world.

And they realize they have to
deal with constraints of time,

money are they building a product
that a customer really wants?

it's not an inward focused all the time.

And so the program was
developed that taught.

Transferrable skills to students
in business and management.

it's built, baked right
into the curriculum.

It's not a, you know, elective courses.

And so this director wanted me to
kind of come in and evaluate where

it was and, I got leave from my job
at Laier to do it over the summer.

And I, you know, I met with a number
of stakeholders and industry people,

and then I submitted a whole report.

And, and one thing in that report, I
said, you know, you need somebody to

oversee this component because all
the students take these management

courses is like a thousand students.

And there's really no one looking
after it other than the instructors

teaching their individual courses.

And then that led to a conversation of.

Well, would that be you?

and and I was like, well, I
already have a full-time job.

This is not a part-time job.

And, and then it became, oh, you
know, we'll have to, put it out there

and, you know, it's a university, you
know, we'll have to go through the

whole recruiting process and hiring.

I said, that's fine.

And, and again, we kept the channels
open and eventually it got posted and

I was asked to apply and I got accepted
into that role in, 2012, January, 2012.

And I've been at McMaster
full-time ever since.

And I started as the inaugural
management chair of the undergraduate

program in the Booth school.

And I did that for six years cuz that's
how long an administrative appointment is.

And I passed the baton on, and
now I'm fully engaged in teaching

and supervising graduate students.

Wow, that's,

So I don't know if that's
a, that's the Coles

Notes version.

Yeah, but I, I think it's, it's really
it's really helpful to understand the,

arc of the, you know, that history from
adventure to training to development

to those sort of roles that you play
along the way that, keep informing

you on stuff because it's not like
you've been a teacher your whole life.

You have, you've been a teacher at
your heart, but, you've been involved

in different businesses, helping them
structure things, helping them set it up,

and then coming back and going, I want
to teach and train, but still involved.

And so I think that really informs
where we're going now, which

is you're teaching regularly
leadership and management skills.

You've had all this
history and experience.

There's something that stood out on your.

Your profile that just caught my
attention, and this is where I wanna

dig in for the next little while,
which is you call yourself a Workplace

ecology strategist, and that term
jumped off the the page to me and

I'm fascinated by that that line.

So first, can you define what that
is and then how does that translate

to business organizational life?

Tell me more about Workplace
Ecology Strategist.

Sure.

So, I mean, I was looking
for something that really.

Fit with my unique skillsets, because
as you've been chatting, I mean, I have

quite a different journey than most
people involved in business, you know,

and along the way, of course, I did my
education and certifications and got an

MBA and did all those traditional things,
but I just wanted something that said,

there's things that have imprinted me
from a very early age that I see value in.

Its transference.

So what I do, you know, when I'm
not teaching or, or supervising grad

students, I still have a consulting
company which I call um, workscape

oh 2 0 2, standing for Oxygen.

And I work with progressive business
leaders and, and their teams to

create workplace environments that
foster, you know, more engagement

wellbeing of employees, and improve
their overall organizational capacity.

And, I do this, and why I call it
an oncologist strategist is I come

from a perspective of looking at
the organization holistically and

coming from a perspective of nature.

I, I look at organizations

in my mind.

I think organizations
are a living ecosystem.

and I look at that interplay
of a living ecosystem.

They're not machines to
be tweaked and, and fixed.

that's the industrial age.

You know, we're long past that,
you know, technology and, and, and

certainly things from our pandemic of
changing the workplace environment.

And the workplace landscape has
altered organizations and will

continue to do so moving forward.

And so it's embracing,
looking at it holistically.

And then what I do is I, I try to look at.

Kind of through three lenses.

I look first at employee health
and wellbeing kind, kind of, and I

don't like to call 'em employees.

I like to call it talent because,
you know, employees right away

almost gives that sort of suba
aspect, you know, you will serve me.

In reality, I like to think
of employees as volunteers.

If you think about them in that way,
they don't have to show up every day.

That will change your perspective
and how you work with them.

Then I also don't wanna avoid the
things that make organizations

tick, you know, and I like to
call organizational enablers.

What are the systems and processes?

How do we structure ourselves?

How do we make decisions?

How do we create a strategy that's
going to service, you know, in the

short term and also in the long term?

and there needs to be
alignment with those.

And then the last area
really brings in my.

Sort of early development, you know, from
high school on is this idea of restorative

design built into the built environment.

And that's really in a short sort
of cell, is to bring nature inside.

And I don't know if you've ever heard
of a concept called biophilic design.

Have you ever heard of that

before?

No, but just the word
itself is really cool.

So bio ferric

biophilic design.

And it originates from the Greek terms.

So bio, meaning nature and then fill
meaning the love of living things.

And it was, it, it's really about, even
though we progressed as a human species,

Our DNA is really deeply ingrained of
living off the land and evolutionary,

you know, we, that's really where we are.

you know, I like to say sometimes we're,
we're nothing more than monkeys with

car keys, I mean, we have a primary
brain, you know, we, sometimes we make

these decisions that don't seem very
rational and that's cuz we're going

more from a primordial perspective.

And we really have an affiliation
with, think about when you wanna

relax, you tend to go to a park.

You look outside, you go to
the beach, you go for a walk.

You don't tend to sit in
a cubicle at a workplace.

That's not where you
find that regeneration.

So how do we build elements
because that really can impact.

talent, productivity how
people communicate together.

It informs how an organization works.

things like, and there's been a
great deal of research in this area.

You it was popularized by a, a
gentleman, I'm trying to remember

his name, wrapped up my head.

Edward Wilson.

He was an evolutionary biologist.

He's no longer with us at Harvard,
and he kind of popularized the

term in for about 30 years ago.

And, architects uh, design
engineers, you know, people

working in the built environment.

Bio affiliate isn't new, but for
regular workplaces it absolutely is.

Especially people in human
resource or, or talent management

and, and, you know, studies of,
you know, have natural light

and those types of things.

In your, in your organization.

Your, your, sorry, your office.

Go ahead.

Yeah, so I, I just wanted to hit on that
because you, you called it restorative

design and then biophilic design,
but that's not, it's not primarily

that you've got a pool table, cuz
you know, pool tables and things like

that were kind of hot for a while.

But you are talking about the
very structure of the way, you

know, the office flows and the
light coming in and those things.

It's not so much that you've added
these cool cultural, what are often

called cultural initiatives, which,
you know, let's add a pool table

and put in a cool, you know, a
bar in the cafeteria or whatever.

that's not, we're talking about, we're
talking about fundamentally the way the,

the layout is the way the structure is.

absolutely.

I mean, I'm not taken away from the
pool table or, or the nice kitchen, you

know, that's, that can be helpful too.

But, do people have
access to natural light?

We, we know that that
improves productivity.

What's the view from your window?

You know, if you can look out over,
you know, there's been a, a, a great

study that it was at a University of
Wisconsin where, you know, people were

in a call center at the, you know,
kind of administrative center at this

university, and half the windows looked
out on sort of parking lot and road.

And the other half the windows looked
out on sort of the, the campus green.

And then they, they measured the
productivity as well as doing

surveys with the employees to find
out, you know, how did they feel.

They, they looked at sick
days, those types of things.

And it was much, much lower for people
who had the, the view of nature.

Looking out their window, even
though everyone had a view,

they just had a different view.

There's been some seminal research
in the healthcare field that really

sort of started this, where again,
people looking out who were recovering

from gallbladder surgery, some people
looked out a window and just saw

the opposite side of the hospital.

Other people in the same
recovery area looked out their

window and could see greenery.

The, the sort of inner courtyard garden
that the hospital had, and again, the

people recovering, they recovered quicker.

They used less pain medication.

They're, you know, they, they
tended to get along better

with their, the nursing staff.

They weren't as grumpy with them.

Uh, Those types of things.

it, it's also bringing natural
materials in like wood and uh,

you know, stone have green walls.

Could you have a water feature?

If you can't bring greener in,
can you have kind of texturing

that looks like nature?

And even how you, you space things out.

You know, there's this
concept in biophilia about,

Prospect and you know, refuge.

So prospect is you like to see things
in a distance, you know, you know,

we're, we're on the plane, you know,
we've got predators that are after us.

That's why houses on a hill or have a
good view tend to sell for more money

because we feel safer in order to look
out and, and see where things are coming.

At the same time, we don't
want things coming behind us.

So we want a place that's a
little cozy, that is private and

quiet that we can regenerate.

So it, it's kind of finding a balance
within whatever the enterprise

has to offer to bring in as many
of these elements as possible.

And, and not all organizations can do
it depends on whether they're, it's

a brand new footprint that they're
building or are they adapting a footprint

or they are left with a footprint.

What are some of the small things that
we can do that could bring in kind of

this restorative idea into the workplace?

Yeah, no, that's really helpful.

so you talked about these three different
elements of, of the talent and the

health and, and wellbeing of the talent.

what you called the enablers
or the systems and processes.

And then this design, this
restorative designer biophilic design.

So what happens when an organization
here's the design part of it,

but are limited by capacity.

Because they can't go through
and put everybody at windows

cuz frankly, they're in a crappy
building and they don't have that.

So you, you come into that situation as
the person who is the advisor or guide

and, and how do you encourage them?

Because ultimately I think all of
this is towards both the health of

the employee and the, the vitality of
that employee to support the system

that's producing an outcome.

Without them being automatons or anything.

But how do, how do you do it in a way
that that actually gets the result

when you're limited by constraints?

Well, it's interesting to say that, and,
and you're right there, there is a great

deal of constraints within organizations
and, and not everybody is coming back

to workplaces as they did pre pandemic.

So I always start with the talent first.

That's the first place I, I look at
and I, I look at a number of elements.

I look first at, you know, what's
the physical and emotional health

you know, employees have, you know,
what, what opportunities do they have

to, you know, do they get benefits?

Do they have, you know, decent breaks?

Do they have flexible schedule?

Does it offer.

You know, the environment offer
neurodiversity in the sense

that, you know, some people like
yourself is more of an extrovert.

Believe it or not, I'm
more of an introvert.

So even though we could be working
together, we, we have different

needs within the organization.

And can the organization accommodate
those individual needs to get

the best out of that individual?

I also look at, you know, whether
people are engaged in their work.

You know, we're, we're all familiar
in the workplace area of the Gallup

surveys and, and the amount of
disengagement that's going on.

you know, are people able to
use their skills and strengths

and you know, to really.

to, to apply their role.

Even to the point of, you know, I mean
that famous uh, psychologist Mikel,

Chuck among colleague, you know, talks
about this idea of flow, you know,

where you actually lose track of time.

And I'm not saying every workplace
activity is gonna be flow, but we tend to

have, if we work towards our strengths,
we we can get, we can get there.

And some of them, I also look
at the relationships that people

have with their coworkers.

You know, is there an environment of
sort of psychological trust going on?

Those types of things Personal
relationships can really

amplify productivity in
organizations, in supporting each

other.

I, I look at whether people find
meaning from their work and how they,

know, do they, they see something
bigger than themselves or their role.

And then lastly, of course, is there
opportunity for them to achieve?

Can, can they increase
their competencies?

Can they get mastery
and, and achieve success?

Those types of things.

So I start there first because no matter
what kind of facility you're in, it

really is, you know, this whole approach
of mine is a, is very people-centric.

That's why I called it workplace
oh two, because I see the, the

concentric circles, and I'll actually
put up a diagram for you because

sometimes it's, it's easier to see it.

You know, there's a ben diagram, And I
put oh two in the middle because that's

really where those things all touch.

that enriches the oxygen.

And, and that's really about,

you know, oxygen is what gets us going
you know, and, and helps us to flourish.

So I start there.

Then the next place I go is I look
at the organizational enablers.

And again, is there alignment?

many times, you know, people talk
about, well, you know, I, I don't

really feel like I fit here, or I
don't really know what we're about.

And then you find out the organization
really isn't communicating clearly

their vision and their purpose, or,
or they really haven't even codified

that in any way that gets traction.

look at, you know, the
collective knowledge and skills.

Do people have the tools and
resources to do their jobs?

What's the culture of the organization?

What's the leadership like?

And, and you know, what
are they measuring?

What are the performance indicators?

Do they have the right
technology in place?

And I'm not an expert
in any of these things.

What I'm good at is, is facilitating
discussions and dialogue and asking

questions, and then bringing in
other subject matter experts.

Let's say there's a technology gap.

By no means am I A C I O.

There are people who are
well qualified to do that.

let's figure out what it is that we need
and how do we go through that process?

I can help Affirm do that.

Then the last place is the
restorative design and that,

like you said, could really be
constrained by the actual facility.

So it might be something really small.

I, I'll give you an
example of my real life.

You know, I work at a university and
universities don't think of restorative

design that's not on their radar.

You know, I'm a, I'm a public university
and so, you know, it's paid with

all, but a lot of taxpayer dollars
and, and donations from corporations.

And my office has a beautiful
window floor to ceiling windows

that looks out onto a main road.

So it's not great.

It's kind of this bluish gray color.

I can't grow a plant in
there to kill myself.

It just doesn't work.

So what I've done to kind of bring a
little bit of this in is I have stands

of, timber, like wood, like branches.

So it's non-living uh,
in a nice sort of vase.

I have a little emulator that kind of
puts out sense of force, like cedar and

things like that when I'm at the office.

So I get that sense of smell.

I have a beautiful long photograph
of, I like to go to the Adirondacks

in, in upper New York state and,
and hike and, and climb and bike.

And I have a beautiful picture
of the, some of the top peaks

in the Adirondacks in the fall.

It's a gorgeous picture and I have
that looking right from my desk.

and I have native artwork that is more.

For a better word to

abstract.

And so it's open to interpretation.

So those are small ways that I can
bring that restorative design into

a space that is really constrained.

You know, I can't knock
out my walls, I can't even

repaint them,

yeah.

so, there are ways of
doing things, for sure.

Yeah.

I find in my work which is coaching
business owners, a lot of the times,

not necessarily in large entities,
but smaller ones I find that by

far the biggest challenge comes
back to what you said, talent.

Like, that's, that's the starting place.

That's where all of the, that's
where all of the pain is.

Are the people issues.

And so a lot of times uh, right now
in the world, and I'm interested in

your perspective on this in terms
of the roles you play and the, the

seat that you sit in, in the world.

entry level labor is
just a nightmare right

now for people.

I mean, people are really
struggling to find labor.

And then as you, as you kind of move
through organizations, you get into white

collar work, especially, you know, in the
high tech sectors and places like that,

there's massive amounts of turnover.

There's, you know, people are
getting hired and then a year

later the whole, you know, there's
cutting, killing swaths of people.

there's, there's this
really complicated world.

And so I guess, how does this workplace
ecology map to this current reality

of the funkiness of the labor markets
and the current workplace market?

Well, you know, I would argue, you know,
let's take those technology companies,

you know, the big ones, you know,
Facebook, or sorry, meta Twitter, you

know, LinkedIn, Microsoft, you know,
they, they hired a whole bunch of people

when the pandemic was full on, and
they hired them from a perspective of,

even though they're in high tech and
sort of very leading edge firms from a

perspective of the industrial revolution
and that idea of, well, if I wanna sell

more, I'm gonna hire a whole lot more
sales or business development people.

If we wanna get more products out
there, we're gonna hire a whole

bunch more software engineers.

The more coders we have, the more
products we're gonna get out there,

and the more quality they're gonna be.

And then when things pull back,
they're left with this level of

people that they no longer can afford.

And then they have to let them all go.

They didn't come from a, an ecosystem
perspective and looking at, okay,

how can we build but remain agile
in the sense that, do we really

need that many people or let's look
inward, what do people do right now?

Would there be things in the role
that they'd like to step up to?

Is there somebody that may not be fully
deployed in one of the department and can

we train them to work in this department?

You know, many, many years ago I did
some consulting with rim Now Blackberry.

And one of the areas that, and
this is going back in, you know,

recessions before and they were
scaling and trying to grow, and the

difficulty that they were finding was.

technical people would go out to
industry conferences and they would run

into other developers and they'd go,
yeah, you know, send in your resume.

Yeah, we really need you.

You know, they, then they'd
go back to the office.

A couple weeks would go by and they'd
never hear anything and then they'd, you

know, they'd contact them and go, well,
yeah, HR never called us back, and I

was like, well, you're fully qualified.

But what was happening was the people
in HR really didn't, if they didn't

use the language on their resume or
their CV in the same way that they

expected it to be, cuz they weren't
technical experts, they dismissed

them as not being good candidates.

so what I did was we took people
who were technical people and

offered them an opportunity for
a short period of time to become.

Recruiters for the organization
as a lateral move, as a way

to develop other competencies.

And in a very short period of time
it helped that need that they had

for more talent because they, those
people recognize what different types

of code and things that they were
looking for because when it was on

their resume, they had that experience.

We just taught them the recruiting
and HR skills, how to ask the right

questions, how to ask questions that
won't get you in trouble with, you

know, human rights and things like that.

How to communicate effectively,
talent or your, your candidates.

So, big organizations and, and smaller.

You also alluded to small organizations
and especially entry level employees.

know, I've seen, you know, and, we're
both mature individuals given by our,

our hair color and things like that.

you know, when we started off out in
industry, people gave us training.

we, we had maybe came with education
that gave us a, a broad understanding

of how to learn and, and we could
critically think and do those things,

but we didn't have specific skill sets.

Companies provided those.

And that's really gone away in
the entry level side of things.

You know, we expect people to come,
my students are, you know, are

expected to come literally out of
the university test tube ready to go.

And that's what companies are looking for.

And you're not gonna get
entry level employees.

You've gotta come again, from their
perspective, come from that human-centric.

Imagine yourself as that young
person starting out where you didn't

have skills in a certain area.

would make you go work
for an organization?

Well, yes, compensation is one thing
and, and I'm not saying that you don't

want to pay people appropriately,
but do you offer training?

The other big part is ongoing training.

Other skill, not just training, do
your job, but other skill development

so that you actually can take
care of your own internal brand.

Do you get mentoring?

That's the other thing young people
are missing in the workplace today.

Those are ways that we could
really, I think, amplify helping

entry level employees and deal with
some of the issues that some of

these companies are, dealt with.

They can't come from, Hey, do
I pay you so come work for me?

That's not good enough anymore.

Right?

People, people are looking for
flexibility, autonomy, development,

opportunities, connection.

How do you provide those things
even at an entry level and.

the thing that's gonna come back, and
I hear it all the time, well, we're

gonna put all this time and money and
effort, and then they're gonna leave

absolutely as they should.

And when they leave, what, what's
the story they're gonna leave with?

They should leave with a story of, Hey,
I work for this cool little company.

You know, I, I did this entry level job.

It was data entry.

I heck I, but then they taught me
how to do accounting and bookkeeping.

Then I went to school at night and I
got my, financial advisor certification

and now I'm, now I'm in banking.

I wouldn't have got
that start without them.

Imagine that story going over and
over and over, telling them to their

friends and, and then their circle
of influence as it grows and grows.

That's just the cost of doing
business and we can't think

of people as machines anymore.

that's, that's how I see this
ecology coming into perspective.

Yeah, I think it's such a powerful thing
that you've just said and I think it's

a lot of times why smaller businesses
often lose out to larger businesses, cuz

larger business have these structures that
they can take people through a pathway.

And one of the things I say too,
My clients and people I'm teaching,

which is you have to give, in smaller
business, you have to give your new

employees a visual of a bigger future
they can have from being with you.

Right?

So there's some bigger future for you,
and it may not be here cuz we're a small

business, but if you work with us, you
are going to go through a series of

steps and, and you're gonna learn some
stuff that gives you a bigger future.

But I have to map that out instead of
the traditional way we did it, which.

Like you said, we hire a body to
fill a slot for 25 bucks an hour,

and that's all we think about it.

And we don't give them training.

We don't give them a future.

We hold them at $25 an hour as
long as humanly possible because,

well, they're just an asset.

The problem is these assets show
up with an attitude, and if you

don't give them a bigger future,
then they go somewhere else.

So I, I think it's a really important
distinction as you think about

ecology, which is, I love your concept
of volunteer, but also of how this

thing all works together because it
makes a difference on how you think

about your employees, how you think
about your team, how you think about

the environment they're in, how
you think about the systems and the

supporting mechanisms behind that.

Yeah, let's jump into a little bit
of, focus on really what the, what the

focus of our, this podcast is about.

But it, it sometimes just gets
sort of shoved to the edges, but

I think it's really important.

how does what you've seen over the
years working in the, in this school

of engineering, because obviously a
lot of people leaving engineering are

going into really cool environments, and
you've been at it long enough that you

likely see people who go from being
a student to being a vp, to being

a, whatever they end up being,
and then they, they come back and

undoubtedly you have conversations.

What are you seeing as it relates to this?

Ecology people focus that you uniquely
take as it relates to how companies,

leadership and companies are thinking
about it and getting advice related to

this, whether it be in an advisory board
or hiring somebody like you as an advisor.

How are you seeing that evolve?

Are they hungry for this kind
of input, insight, direction?

well, speaking from a, from a graduate's
perspective, you know, so I teach

in an under, you know, primarily
undergraduate program, and I supervise

graduate students on community projects
where they go out on the community

and work with the community partner.

Our students are in a four and
a half year program, and so they

actually graduate in December.

They, they're finished their,
their schooling and then a regular

engineering program goes until till May.

And when we get to convocation,
which is in June you know, you go

to convocation and you meet with the
students, you know, they've been out

and they, they meet their parents.

It's a, it's a grand event.

I, I, I love going to those.

But when I'm having conversations,
it's a mixture of the students have

graduated from the W bus school as well
as students who have graduated in the more

traditional engineering programs such as
electrical, civil, mechanical who haven't

had any business in management training.

The first and foremost thing, almost
every one of our graduates is employed

in that short period of time between
basically January and May and almost

exclusively what gets them hired.

It's like the, their technical background
gets them the company and it's a tick box.

But what makes it work is, oh,
you can come from a perspective

of management in business.

You have an understanding of
those transferrable skills.

You know, I like to think of
it as a, t-shaped professional.

So imagine a vertical axis is,
you the, their, depth of knowledge

and their technical expertise.

And then the t across
the top is horizontal.

Transferrable knowledge,
understanding of marketing human

behavior finance a strategy, and
it's those intermixing that work.

And the other thing I see with our
graduates, cuz I keep hooked up with

them on LinkedIn, is they accelerate
much faster in their career.

As you were talking about that trajectory,
I'm not saying that engineers don't go on

to become VP managers, VPs, and, and CEOs.

Many do.

But the accelerated process that
our graduates in the Booth school go

through, that is much, much quicker.

a few years ago we had a, a student
who was the very first Canadian from an

engineering school to be hired at Tesla.

And he, in a very short period of
time, became a senior manager in

that organization down in California.

Within four years unheard of in
an engineering sort of mixture

business and engineering field.

And I, and I see similar
types of attributes.

so I think, coming from that
engineering background, I

mean, engineers like to think.

Things are right or wrong, they're
black or white, the formula's

correct, or it's not correct.

And then they come to my classes
or my uh, structure and it's

just like, well, it depends, you
know, it depends on the situation

and, and can you read what's going on?

and what I tend to get a lot of
afterwards is sometimes during the

time they're here, I'll be quite
honest, I, I don't get a lot of, you

quoted this term, a lot of fresh air.

they're like, oh, why do we
have to take this course, sir?

You know, I really like
to, you know, build things.

I like to build robots, do all this stuff,
but then when they get out in industry, I,

get these amazing letters from graduates.

I'm so glad I took your course.

You were so ranked, you know,
I have to work in this team.

It's complicated.

People are, they have
different personalities.

And I was going back to my course notes
on motivation and, to me, that's the

greatest attribute I can ever get.

So I always like to
say I get my fresh air.

A few years later.

I never get at the end of the course year.

I always get it after they graduate.

And so there is a huge demand.

Going back to your question of advisory
board, I think companies need people

who understand the human element and
can help other people be open to it.

You know, I, and I'm not trying
to ignore, the companies need

to be financially stable.

They need to have a good strategy.

They need to have great marketing
and, and reasonable technology

to do what they need to do.

But without the people who cares, you
know, what are you keeping track of

y there's there you've got nothing.

And I think once you start switching
your mindset to the idea, just using the

words talent as opposed to employees,
that right away shifts your mindset.

You know, words are very powerful.

Language is extremely powerful.

That's why I never really like,
you know, even though I'm a

certified HR professional, I
don't like to use the word.

HR cuz it's human resources.

Again, you're thinking of it
as something like capital.

But they, like you said, you know,
they, they go out the door every

night and do they come back the
next morning when you start thinking

about as talent management or, talent
facilitation, talent coaching, just that

language alone starts to shift things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's good.

have you engaged in advisory
boards, advisory panels, think

tanks to support businesses?

Have you had that opportunity?

Tell me a little bit about your,
your experience in and around that.

So I've had it at two levels.

So I've had a lot of not-for-profit
advisory boards with associations

the institute for, you know, Canadian
Institute of Canadian Management.

You, the Human Resource
Association Chamber of Commerces.

You know, there's some incubators
that I'm involved in at the university

as well, and so, a lot of that tends
to be either sitting in a sort of

committee meeting in, in that area,
and providing support and advice or

as you said, you know, especially
these incubators being on a panel.

You're being the guest
speaker, you're invited in.

instance, I, I did, this was over in
Singapore and I did it remotely, but

I, I gave guest speaker spot for a
skills development organization that's

global in nature, and it was around
most specifically restorative design.

But I've also done advisory boards in
the, and so before I jump on those, one

of the things with not-for-profit is they
can be very committee oriented and, you

know, unless you've worked in the academic
side of things, I, I almost like to think

of myself as a, a reluctant academic.

I'm not a traditional academic, you
know, I didn't study and, and go

from undergraduate to graduate to,
to PhD to then in into university.

I, you know, I worked out in the real
world and I, chose in the sort of third

act of my career to come and, and help
educate what I felt would be the next

generation of leaders in young people,
as well as how helping professional

practitioners who may be coming back
to uh, university for extra training.

one of the things that in universities
and, and sort of not-for-profits is

very sort of structured and committee.

They're not sort of, They're not
advisory boards in the true sense,

because they don't take advantage
of what advisory boards can offer.

They don't take advantage of
really saying, where are our needs?

Do we need help in talent?

Do we need help in finance?

Do we help in business development?

Who can we bring on our board that
has a skills but also is aligned

with the mission of our organization?

And more importantly,
will we listen to them?

And so my experience for for-profit
advisory boards has been mostly

with organizations that are
kind of, I would say mid-size.

So, so kind of anywhere between
150 to a thousand employees.

And, for instance, I have a
client that I, I've worked, you

know, as advisor for close to.

20 years now, actually, believe it or not.

And this, so they've seen my
morphine of my career as well in

the, in the private healthcare
field in Canada, which is unusual.

But they, they own multiple clinics
uh, across the province of Ontario.

And I, in my role there, as an
advisor, what I've done is I've taken

it a little bit farther than just
offering sort of advice and questions.

I actually facilitate their senior
management meeting every month.

And so we, we have it every month.

And so I take on a, a facilitator
role to ensure that everybody

can get their message across
where they see things going.

And it also allows the c e o, who's
also a healthcare practitioner who

has learned the business again, they
were an expert in healthcare and then

had to learn the business model to
sit back and kind of take it in and,

and people, what happened out of that
is people don't feel the pressure of,

well, this is what the boss wants.

I, I won't say this, push so that
people put opinions on the table in

a safe element that we can digest
those and see what works and what may

not work in the foreseeable future.

Yeah.

That's so good.

so

an interesting

experience.

Another one with a creative firm,
they're 150 and, and I facilitate,

again, I, I came to them.

When they were like, the owner wanted
in an exit know, he wanted it quickly

and, you know, city on the advisor,
I said, it's not gonna be, well you

can, you can exit quick, but you're
not gonna get what you want for it.

Um, Cuz there's nothing here for anyone.

You've got a list of customers,
but what a, what's somebody buying?

And so we had to spend a few years putting
in a lot of structure and making sure

we had the right people on the team so
that they could offer a full package.

And, and ultimately he did divest
that and, and get it for sale.

And has now, since retired, moved from
Ontario out to uh, Whistler, bc so

that's a.

great life.

So, one of the things you talked
about is this sort of perspective

you bring, which is, talent focused
people, but the ecology side of it.

So when you sit on an advisory board
and not, I'm not talking about the

facilitation part, but you're, you're
one of the seats on the advisory board.

Is that kind of the thing that you're
watching for and listening for is

how does the, the people intersect
with the systems and processes, with

the, with this design around here?

Is that the, place you often sit as
an expert on the advisory board or,

or what's the superpower you bring to
bear if you're, sitting on that seat.

it's, that's a great question.

And I mean, can't help
but think strategically.

I, you know, it just, it
just is in my mindset.

It's almost the first place I go.

I start asking the who, what, why,
where questions um, what fits with what

I'm looking at, where there are gaps.

And, and I think, know if that's a
superpower, but it, you know, sometimes

it's, can work in the opposite way.

It's too big picture.

that's, that tends to be what I can offer.

You know, do I have subject matter
expertise with, with working

with, with people and talent?

Absolutely.

Do I understand, you know,
management and motivation?

Uh, And I've worked a lot of different
organizations, both working in them

as well as consulting with them.

But I think being able to think
strategically and offer that, and I'm

not talking about creating a strategy
that's important too, but just the mindset

around people get lost in the micro
very, very quickly and they, they start

working on a symptom rather than trying
to determine what the cause of that is.

And, and maybe they improve
things for a short period of time,

but then it literally pops up
later in a much worse situation.

And, and that can be devastating,
especially for a smaller organization.

You know, it could even be
mission critical and that

that could be a real issue.

And, and so I think that's what I bring.

I, I ask, I listen a lot.

I ask a lot of questions um,
maybe sometimes too much.

I kind of do it to push people to, and
I'm not expecting an answer right away.

Many times it's like, well go away
and think about this, and then

let's come back at our next meeting
and have a conversation about it.

And it's trying to get people through
that, their, their personal change or

their personal belief structure around it.

And sometimes, especially for
smaller operators or founders,

they're the ones that are getting
in the way of their success.

They were really good when they were
smaller and they could touch everything.

But now that it's expanded, they can't
touch everything and they want to.

And so they, they get a lot of.

Energy and reward and achievement
by jumping in and solving this

technical problem or this financial
problem, or talking to customers,

which is great, but you're now
overseeing an entire organization

and that can feel uncomfortable.

And so sometimes it's nice to have
somebody, I, I like to think of

myself as kind of a strategic guide.

It's, it's nice to kind of have a guide
every now and then that you can kinda

lean on and go, well, what do you think?

And coaching, I'm sure
for you is the same thing.

And it, those types of things
that I think I, I offer when I,

when I work with advisory boards

Well, Alan, this has been uh,
this has been delightful and very

helpful in terms of thinking about,
I, I love the concept of ecology.

I think it's such a cool concept
and for your, perspective on it,

but also how you come at thinking as
an advisor really helpful as well.

So let's assume a CEO is listening
to this and the concept of

ecology sparks something in them.

What type of counsel would you give them
in terms of considering the importance

of it and the value they can get
from like getting an advisor to maybe

getting an advisory board, but more
importantly how to think about ecology?

How, what simply would you say
to them as a starting place?

I think as a starting place is they
have to ask themselves, are they open?

They have to look back and reflect
where have they found their training?

What, what is it more in the
traditional MBA business background

where that, you know, you're,
you're trying to command and control

Mm.

where you're coming from and you
want to go to an ecology perspective.

You can't continue to hold
that same perspective.

You've gotta be open to the fact that
things can, I, I'm not saying they

run autonomously, but most people, and
certainly people I've met, go to places

to work, not to slack off, not to get
the most money and not do anything.

They wanna contribute, they wanna add
value, but something stops from when

they arrived within a, sometimes in a
very short period of time, sometimes

in a longer period of time, that then
ends up to be that problem employee.

And then that becomes the focus
of senior management going,

you know, they have to go back.

And even themselves, like became
CEOs, why did they become CEOs?

What, what is it that they wanted?

They wanted to create something that was
different than where they were before.

And how do they put
their vision on on that?

And it, so if they can't that
human-centric perspective, know,

I'll be upfront with somebody to
say, you know, you can continue

to do what you do and have fun.

And I'm not saying it's good or
bad, it's just not gonna be a

fit for what I can offer you.

But it really starts at that senior level.

And so that's why I meet with the
senior leaders and their senior team

and start those discussions and,
and open that up and, and also kind

of explore what's their story like
you've done with me on this podcast.

Where did they come from?

What did that influence in them?

and then how does that
serve them moving forward?

Or is it something that maybe we need to
put that in a bag and just drop that bag.

It's no longer serving you in the future.

So

good.

Well, I always like to end these
conversations with some sort of rapid fire

questions, and not a, not many of them,
but they just, it's a way to wrap this in

terms of the humanness of you, you've come
across as this brilliant expert who drinks

chai tea, but I, I still like to add some
strange questions just to finish that off.

So, uh, a answer as little, as
much as you want, but MAC or

pc.

Oh, definitely Mac,

no, sorry.

My apologies.

That was my Friday and slip.

I heard my wife Carmen come in.

She's the Mac user.

I'm the PC user.

I have to work at a university.

They're not

MAC

Oh, right, right, right.

So you're a, you're, you're
sort of a split family.

That's

interesting.

split family, but I have very
little understanding of the Mac

world.

Got it.

Okay.

So, what book has most significantly
shaped you more than any other?

And, and I realize that's a massive
question cuz I know you're a deep learner,

but is there a book that has had a
profound influence in your entire life?

I would say a book That's, that's a,
that's a great question by the way.

I, you know, I think cuz I'm an active
reader and as you know, I think that's

how we, you, one of the things when you
came to interview me for your TV show,

you spent most of your time looking at
my bookshelf and you kind of went, you

know, we read the same, same stuff.

I think, and this is gonna sound
bizarre, but it's the Zen and Art of

Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Perrick.

That book to me is I've
read it numerous times.

Every time I read it, I
get something more from it.

But it's a great philosophical
discussion about the concept of

quality and what it means to you and,
and, and how to live a quality life.

And so I think it's not a business book
per se, it's, it just resonates with me.

Beautiful.

What was the first question you asked?

Chat, G p t.

Well, the first que well, the
first question, that's funny you

say that, cuz last fall I had to
Because I work in a university

environment, it was really coming on.

I actually was giving it some prompts
to see if it could complete an

assignment that I felt a student had
used it to complete the assignment to

see if they actually were using it.

And uh, I verified that they did.

And so unfortunately for that student,
they ended up with an academic integrity

charge on their transcript because it's
using a third party source that they

didn't source as part of that process.

But it is interesting, I have another
colleague that has really embraced

this, Matt, who I teach with, and
he's had another college, but,

he teaches uh, McMaster part-time
in one of the courses that I run,

entrepreneurial Thinking and Innovation.

And he's developed a whole thing
for educators on how to teach

them how to do prompts more
effectively, to build assignments

and quizzes and, and case studies.

And so he's put a whole little.

Training platform together, and
I'm starting that process uh, this

coming month to go through that.

That's delightful.

What was the last thing you
completely nerded out on?

Well, I mean, it would be probably
coming up with a pulley system to

hang my racing canoes in my garage.

So I use old climbing hardware and
pulleys and, prixs to, to pull my

canoes up so they rest above my car
and then I can just unhook them and

un uncleat them and bring them down.

So,

Beautiful.

Well, my friend, this is uh,
this has been delightful.

I have learned a lot and I appreciate you
sharing and we will make sure that we

give people the uh, ways to connect with
you on LinkedIn and uh, anywhere else.

what else would you say as we complete
this conversation, any uh, anything you

wanna direct people to or recommendations
or anything as we con conclude?

well, I mean, if they want to
connect with me, LinkedIn is

the, is the best way to do that.

I don't actually have a website
because I, most of the, the work

that I get con um, from a guiding
perspective is related to word of mouth.

So that's the best way to reach me.

if you, if you wanna look at a
company that gets it especially

if you're in, in the us Patagonia.

you know, Yvonne Shinard is, is a good,
a good example of a mid-size company

working in a very competitive industry,
garment manufacturing and retailing

a very niche market that gets it.

know, I don't know if you know, but
he is, you know, rather than selling

the firm, he has sold it to nature.

And so he's created a trust.

So all the profits moving
forward don't go to his family,

don't go to any shareholders.

They go to nature
foundations, so pretty cool.

Interesting.

But

Well, thank you again.

It's been a pleasure and uh, I
appreciate you being on the show.

Great to reconnect Tom.

Thanks so much for having me.