Speaker 1: I advisory board nation.

Speaker 1: This is Tom Adams, and I want to welcome you to the advisory board insider podcast today.

Speaker 1: Today you're in for a ride A wild and unexpected ride with Dr John O'Dwyer.

Speaker 1: John is an adjunct professor and the executive in residence at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto.

Speaker 1: He's professor of Rotman's most loved elective MBA course.

Speaker 1: Getting It Done.

Speaker 1: Over the past 30 years, john's professional career has spanned financial, hr, operational management areas and has also been a president, ceo and business owner.

Speaker 1: John is currently a partner with Strategic Advisory International, a management consulting firm that focuses on providing client organizations with management tools that enable them to transform their winning strategies into genuine results.

Speaker 1: On top of that, john is an interesting character.

Speaker 1: You know my goal on this podcast is to introduce you to people and perspectives in the advisory board space.

Speaker 1: Advisors that take all shapes and styles, and today you'll experience a style in Dr John that is uninhibited, honest in your face and, because of that, very refreshing.

Speaker 1: He calls it like it is, he tells it like it is, and you're going to get his full expression of that on today's episode.

Speaker 1: So buckle up.

Speaker 1: You're about to go on a wild and crazy ride.

Speaker 1: Here we go.

Speaker 1: Dr John O'Dwyer, welcome to the advisory board insider podcast.

Speaker 1: I'm glad you're here.

Speaker 2: Okay, now hold on.

Speaker 2: It's going back to 2000 and Fast Company.

Speaker 2: personal brand name is Doc John, and it was a joke.

Speaker 2: more than anything else, i have a PhD, but I'm not a proper doctor.

Speaker 1: Okay, so we're just calling you.

Speaker 1: We're calling you either Doc John or John.

Speaker 1: So, yes, okay, all right, so shall I start again?

Speaker 1: No, that's okay, i just.

Speaker 2: I just you know there's people who are proper doctors.

Speaker 1: I'm not All right, you're just a PhD.

Speaker 1: you're just a PhD with a whole lot of other credentials behind your name, which we'll get to.

Speaker 1: but let's start with what are your geographic coordinates today?

Speaker 1: Where are you located?

Speaker 2: I'm in, i would say Mimico, which is a small little, was a small little village of Toronto, and looking out my window when actually we got the smoke in here, normally I can see the entire the smokes in today, but I'm at 12 kilometers, sorry, whatever it is in miles right from downtown Toronto.

Speaker 1: Okay, so Toronto is the major coordinate, but you're in a tiny little or part of Toronto which is no longer a little and tiny.

Speaker 1: It's a massive global city which I know from reading through some of your stuff that you really like Toronto.

Speaker 1: Toronto is a real city that you have fallen in love with.

Speaker 2: And actually you say it quite right, because when I met my wife at Western she was, i say, she has a proper PhD.

Speaker 2: Oh, industrial, and an organizational psychology.

Speaker 2: Okay, my one's just in management.

Speaker 2: And we could get into that if you wanted to, but probably not I'd piss off too many profs.

Speaker 2: But when I had, i actually had a green card for the US at the same time and I wanted to go to Boston.

Speaker 2: Oh, wife Kathy has her sister here.

Speaker 2: She's gone to Toronto And so it wasn't my first choice.

Speaker 2: But actually it's changed in the time we moved here in 94.

Speaker 2: And it has changed dramatically.

Speaker 2: I say to people all the time Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world.

Speaker 2: That works.

Speaker 2: We're not perfect, but sorry, you come to Toronto and you know we got little, little everything literally little India little Pakistan, little Greece, little, whatever you know.

Speaker 2: You know it is the most, i would say, the most multicultural city in the world and it works.

Speaker 2: We're on the lake.

Speaker 2: It's a beautiful location.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great city and I I lived there many years ago and I have great memories of Toronto, and so it's good to know where you're located, but you're obviously not Canadian.

Speaker 1: There is a little bit of a accent brewing beneath the surface, so we'll get to that in a moment, but, as we normally do on this podcast, i always like to figure out what the morning drink of choice is.

Speaker 1: So what's your morning drink of choice, john?

Speaker 2: I haven't had a cup, but actually I'm not supporting that one.

Speaker 2: They're way overpriced.

Speaker 2: But coffee.

Speaker 1: Coffee, and so are you.

Speaker 1: Are you kind of a snob about coffee, or do you just take what comes out of the drip machine, or you pour over, or what's your thing.

Speaker 2: I had an espresso machine and I actually gave it to my niece and now I have a curried machine because I get the cheek junk from Walmart or from Costco, because I'm not fussy about my coffee.

Speaker 1: I apologize, got it Okay, just to round out who you are, because I feel like we're going to have an interesting conversation.

Speaker 1: But what's a typical morning look like for you?

Speaker 1: So either before you get the coffee, do you start with the coffee and then jump into life, or do you have this routine in the morning and then coffee comes after.

Speaker 1: What's an average morning look like for you?

Speaker 1: If I go?

Speaker 2: look at the last week Monday and Tuesday I was volunteering for a non-profit.

Speaker 2: I'm a sort of a surrogate senior leadership team member.

Speaker 2: We're doing strategic planning.

Speaker 2: I volunteer for them at Windmill Microlanding.

Speaker 2: They support new immigrants.

Speaker 2: Oh cool.

Speaker 2: They go from prosperity, from potential prosperity.

Speaker 2: Give micro lanes loans to people so they can get their accreditation.

Speaker 2: People coming in that are professionals.

Speaker 2: So it's potential prosperity for the individual, but also for the country, do you?

Speaker 1: get what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: Yeah, those two days.

Speaker 2: No, i was there and they actually buy me a coffee.

Speaker 2: Okay, i get paid.

Speaker 2: I actually didn't get paid.

Speaker 2: I had to put that coffee and they bought me lunch as well.

Speaker 2: I had to put that on my tax return, i think that's a tax return.

Speaker 1: I'm open charged.

Speaker 2: Yes, And then Wednesday yeah it was I get up, I turn the machine on.

Speaker 2: It's not on all the time.

Speaker 2: I come to this computer here, hit the button, wait for it to wake up and get in, And then usually you spend about 10 minutes getting rid of 100 joking emails before I get the regular ones, and at that stage the coffee is ready And then I get to work.

Speaker 2: But then yesterday, Thursday, I was doing a gig with my colleague my teaching colleague for, actually for Maple Leaf Sports Entertainment, where we're doing in-house training.

Speaker 2: So I was down there for 730.

Speaker 1: So no, so you don't seem to have an average day, and I got that sense just by reading your LinkedIn profile, your bio, just following trying to follow you around the world a little bit, and there seems nothing ordinary about you.

Speaker 1: So I can't imagine you have an ordinary day.

Speaker 1: So well, that's good to know.

Speaker 1: But let's jump in, because I always like to explore where you came from, and we already alluded to the fact that you're Irish.

Speaker 1: But take me back into second level, when you're in Dublin, ireland.

Speaker 1: So you grew up in Dublin, you're in second level, which, to those of us not from Ireland, recognize that probably as secondary school, high school, however you want to call it.

Speaker 1: But what's happening in your life at that point?

Speaker 1: What's going on?

Speaker 1: What are you thinking about?

Speaker 2: Okay, there were five of those kids.

Speaker 2: I was four out of five.

Speaker 2: Big sister, four boys, i was three out of four.

Speaker 2: Okay, and I have a tie that has black sheep on it.

Speaker 2: Most from when I was five to when I left high school I was dropped off.

Speaker 2: Both my parents were from, you know, from farms.

Speaker 2: No matter who was a nurse, daddy was to have business, but eventually a bar manager.

Speaker 2: I got dropped off.

Speaker 2: You know, school ends on a Friday, saturday.

Speaker 2: I'm now on my ad-noggle farm milking cows, bringing in the hay and walking to Greyhounds and slopping out from the pigs, and school started on a Monday and I broke back in the Sunday, the afternoon on a Saturday.

Speaker 2: So I might not love that.

Speaker 2: I've got two families.

Speaker 2: I've got my country cousins, they're called, and so I was very fortunate to and they didn't have actually running water to or to.

Speaker 2: I was 16.

Speaker 2: So we won't talk about all that, but so I was very fortunate to have the best about World's of Mirals School to me and part of, i would say, our success, the course I teach my new part in there for three years.

Speaker 2: We're ending retired.

Speaker 2: January will be our 23rd year, and so we say the Rom and School of Management, university of Toronto, where Rotman is long the strong and I brag and I apologize most awarded elective MBA course.

Speaker 2: So it's elective to have the bid for it.

Speaker 2: Right, and not too many last 23 years, right.

Speaker 2: And the reason is I hated high school.

Speaker 2: If I was here I'd be a high school rapper.

Speaker 2: I was kicked out of three of my six classes by Parkship.

Speaker 2: I find out a year But it's standardized testing.

Speaker 2: The Department of Education sent me by my please turn up at my school, different invigilators And I got kicked out.

Speaker 2: And, let's put it this way, there's culpability of both parts, because I never got reported to the principal, my parents never knew about it And I studied by myself and went to school every day.

Speaker 2: 10 to some classes didn't.

Speaker 2: And I actually got enough points to be accepted for the two big universities in Ireland Trinch College Dublin, university College Dublin for Bachelor of Science.

Speaker 2: And Mami says which one do you want to?

Speaker 2: I don't know, none of them, i don't know.

Speaker 2: I spent about four years listening to some water.

Speaker 2: Okay, i've been trying to be a pleasure.

Speaker 2: And Mammy looked at me and goes.

Speaker 2: I said that didn't get me a job at the bar.

Speaker 2: She looked at me and goes yeah right, i wish you didn't even say that I go.

Speaker 2: That's not happening.

Speaker 2: My brother had a girlfriend at the time and knew somebody was looking for an after you clerk for accounting.

Speaker 1: Hmm.

Speaker 2: We were streamed.

Speaker 2: I was in the B class, season Ds.

Speaker 2: I didn't know what accounting was.

Speaker 2: I asked what's involved five years ago, what's that?

Speaker 2: It was like an apprenticeship.

Speaker 2: Sure, i'm about to study a bit, you do a nine month college course.

Speaker 2: So I said, okay, keep Mammy happy, i'll do it, you know nothing about accounting.

Speaker 2: And then I ended up in accounting as like whatever I got there, i didn't know, but seemingly I'm good at numbers.

Speaker 2: And then out of 105, it was, i don't know five of us had to get special information because we weren't within a year at the end of our five years' first bills, because we sat to the four exams We sit the first one.

Speaker 2: And then our peers were the three and four year B Com people.

Speaker 2: They should do, and then professional one, and then the FAA.

Speaker 2: I was fortunate You can't do that anymore.

Speaker 2: And they answered him I'm bragging.

Speaker 2: And my mother couldn't believe it.

Speaker 2: My mother told, my mother told, oh, my.

Speaker 2: God, he has no hope because she knew friends whose kids hadn't And the pass rate in 19,.

Speaker 2: So it's 16, 17 days.

Speaker 2: In 1979 in Ireland they used to control it like the lawyers did it as well.

Speaker 2: I'll show you it was 24.3% because that was the number.

Speaker 2: You know, x number we're applying.

Speaker 2: We only need so many of them And they cut it off.

Speaker 2: Anyway, i passed my FAA at 21.

Speaker 2: Now it didn't become an account until it was 22 or three.

Speaker 2: What comes to it is so the teaching when I designed and at Western, i got into shit like one summer, three years in, my advisor says who was a sailor up in your audience?

Speaker 2: says back in town, john, i need to see urgently.

Speaker 2: And I go, oh my God, what do they do here?

Speaker 2: to pick up some free office.

Speaker 2: See me a tree.

Speaker 2: I thought don't be late.

Speaker 2: I said hey, how's the sailing gone?

Speaker 2: Stop this.

Speaker 2: What's this?

Speaker 2: And it was the transcript for the courses I was taking about theory of adult education, curriculum design, practice of teaching, all this type of stuff.

Speaker 2: And I says, well, i want to teach.

Speaker 2: And he says, john, publish a parish, forget about students.

Speaker 2: And out of for five years that I was there, about 15 at the time, phd students across the different areas, to say, a cohort of 75.

Speaker 2: There was me and one other lady who ever took those courses, They see, teaching to me and passionate about it.

Speaker 2: Right, and I took all that And that's why I'm not the publisher.

Speaker 2: Perish did that crap, but to this day is when I teach.

Speaker 2: You see, i teach for that asshole called John O'Dowar.

Speaker 2: I keep his attention Right, i don't have to worry about the rest.

Speaker 1: Right, because you're the hardest one to keep.

Speaker 1: You're the hardest one to keep your own attention.

Speaker 2: Yeah, they'd be giving me, they'd be giving rid of them if they had it in my day.

Speaker 2: I'm showing my age, right.

Speaker 2: You know what I mean And that's that.

Speaker 2: To me it's a failure of people in the front of the room.

Speaker 2: I'm sorry You got me on.

Speaker 2: You shouldn't have asked me that question.

Speaker 1: Oh, ok, well, we'll go off in another direction.

Speaker 1: But so so you get your accounting degree, or you get your accounting designation, and then you've done that for five years, so roughly five years, and so you've got your, you've passed that.

Speaker 1: Give me a sense of the path that your journey took, without getting too stuck in the weeds on it.

Speaker 1: But just, i read your, your bio.

Speaker 1: I read your bio on the University of Toronto website.

Speaker 1: I've read it on LinkedIn.

Speaker 1: I've I've found your bio in terms of a more complex one, and I mean you you've done things like you sort of went up the scale.

Speaker 1: You worked at a place like KPMG.

Speaker 1: I mean like you took this what apparently is someone who is a little bit of a challenging student.

Speaker 1: You made your way through something And then that you started leveraging that somehow You started stair stepping that thing into the next thing and then the next thing.

Speaker 1: So give me a sense of that, at least just a general arc of the story from there.

Speaker 1: Where did you go in industry specifically before you got back into education?

Speaker 2: Yeah, So I actually I was in a small fair And actually it's interesting, I go and I actually change articles, which you couldn't really do that easy.

Speaker 2: I went to a medium firm and then actually because it was three of us and me and the boss didn't quite get on, And then after I left I went back working from after hours of that.

Speaker 2: We got on great OK.

Speaker 2: So it was just interesting, Hard, dynamic.

Speaker 2: And then I went into medium firm and then I went into actually the rag trade as a group account And then I was in London from 80 to 82 for the CFO for one of their subsidiaries there And then I came from that to KPMG and corporate finance And then out of that I got recruited to set up a corporate finance company and then a venture capital company.

Speaker 2: And then we had an investment in an aviation services company here and their presidency got killed demonstrating a prototype aircraft down in Bogota, Colombia, And you know I was on their board and I was a pain.

Speaker 2: But you know the W knows better than W don't know.

Speaker 2: So I landed in 87 in Canada, mainly to refinance it, Black Monday 87.

Speaker 2: But if you might be old enough for Black Monday 87, most people won't be.

Speaker 2: And then I had this objective of you know, right, Fairly, to be present.

Speaker 2: See, all the company have shareholding and all that good stuff.

Speaker 2: And I'd done that work much.

Speaker 2: And I said, OK, what am I going to do next?

Speaker 2: And because I'd worked at that stage from you know, basically from 18, I'd worked for 10 years and accounting is beautiful corporate finance.

Speaker 2: My abiding takeaway was organizations that this day failed to leverage their key asset, Perkheed on the capital, And I was stupid, I didn't do my homework.

Speaker 2: So I picked, OK, what do I need to learn?

Speaker 2: Organization behavior?

Speaker 2: I could have gone to Western blood stage, The finance people were able to get out in about two and two and a half years of a joint finance which it could have easy done.

Speaker 2: But idiot me is no, I want the spirit of people.

Speaker 2: So it was a five year trip which I loved And that's what brought me into academia.

Speaker 2: And then, and then I hadn't done, I learned, oh, it's publisher parish And I did best papers and articles and chapters and books and cases and all that type of stuff.

Speaker 2: But I said, no, I want to make a difference on a day to day basis.

Speaker 2: I don't want to wait for the two year peer review and all that stuff They now have from about two years ago.

Speaker 2: So I was 25 years.

Speaker 2: I was at what you call a generation too soon.

Speaker 2: They now have teaching stream but there's no one hiring an old fart like me in the teaching stream.

Speaker 2: But they now have what I would have been snuffer.

Speaker 2: So I went out and worked as a consultant and I'm still doing out to this day Got it So.

Speaker 1: so you've got this journey which takes you through finance.

Speaker 1: Finance leads you to leadership in finance, private equity.

Speaker 1: Then you're on a board of a place.

Speaker 1: you actually then take over that company, But it's in that role that you went.

Speaker 1: I understand finance, but I don't understand people.

Speaker 1: Or did you understand people and just not know how to leverage it?

Speaker 1: Or what was the thing that really drove you to go do this?

Speaker 1: now, this study in organizational behavior, What was the thing missing in you that you felt like you needed to get?

Speaker 2: It was more 10 years of work experience and what would be more is the accountant, corporate finance and seeing all the different corporations I'd work with and saying I'm not saying I was a great manager, but I don't know how many we had in the corporate finance company and venture capital company, but I think I had it up to 15 or something.

Speaker 2: It's still small, but I mean I don't know.

Speaker 2: I was excellent but I don't think I was disastrous.

Speaker 2: So it wasn't more about was more about helping other organizations that we just I need us to learn more.

Speaker 2: It's my problem.

Speaker 2: I still take a student course.

Speaker 2: This is on a practicum at 10 o'clock to 12 o'clock last night.

Speaker 2: It's more about I need us to learn more about helping organizations with how to leverage their people and help their people be better.

Speaker 2: It's just a half might be a weakness of how stupid curiosity and I'm still taking stupid courses.

Speaker 2: I mean, why am I taking courses?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Well, I think there's a, there's a weird bug that gets in certain people that they just can't help themselves, And I feel like I'm like you, that I can't stop myself.

Speaker 1: I buy books like stupid.

Speaker 1: You know, my book budget outperforms pretty much every other budget.

Speaker 1: More than computers, more than anything, I buy books, but I don't know.

Speaker 1: There's this really cool.

Speaker 1: I think that I just see in people like you which is this, this insatiableness, which is you get it.

Speaker 1: You just want a bit more and you go for another thing and you get another thing.

Speaker 1: And for I noticed on your like you know when, when I looked at some of your bio stuff and I start noticing the certifications that you not just your PhD and your MBA, it's like 800 certifications that follow your name, which is quite.

Speaker 1: It's both admirable and it's also crazy.

Speaker 1: You're a little bit of both, I sense.

Speaker 2: It's no, i keep on.

Speaker 2: It's like stupid is what it is, but I can't.

Speaker 2: If I have an addiction, yeah, it's a need to get another.

Speaker 2: I got that.

Speaker 2: Put something on LinkedIn, yeah, you know.

Speaker 2: Got this other certification, you know, because I needed more letters out of my name.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Well, let's, let's go back, because you you hinted at it And because a lot of people who might listen to this may not know your connection with the Rotman School of Management at University of Toronto.

Speaker 1: But you mentioned this course that you run as the highest awarded, longest running elective MBA course at the school.

Speaker 1: I've read some of the reviews of that in in preparing for our conversation today.

Speaker 1: But tell me a little bit more, just generally, about the nature of that course and why you think it's actually been the longest running, most attended.

Speaker 1: You hinted at it, which is you're trying to keep you personally like you're the student in this class and you're trying to keep yourself engaged.

Speaker 1: So I get that part of it.

Speaker 1: But why else do you think this particular course gives us a sense of it and why it is so attractive to people?

Speaker 1: It's called gaining it done.

Speaker 2: Okay, let me tell you where it came from.

Speaker 2: So my previous teaching partner, brendan, who retired he's now Professor of Merises at University of Toronto.

Speaker 2: He was managing director for a time for the MBA full time program And a number of students came to him and said, brendan, we're at the Rotman School of Management, do we learn about management?

Speaker 2: And he says you know, she got strategy, you got operations, you got finance, you got organization, you got footer you got this all.

Speaker 2: And they says, yes, brendan, but where do we learn how to get it done?

Speaker 2: So, of course, that's how is it?

Speaker 2: Brendan and I know each other, We've done motorcycles trips together and things like that, and so and he was a client and me and my previous business partner, we said, hey, open source, open source, we give away.

Speaker 2: The course, gives away our IP, what you would say, right, that says here's a management system right in the centers, here's your, what's your purpose, what's your vision, what's your values?

Speaker 2: Now, what's your strategy?

Speaker 2: Then, how do you employ it and get alignment And how do you manage your results?

Speaker 2: checkpoints, course corrections and then continuous proven, how do you stay best in class?

Speaker 2: And it's a comprehensive management system.

Speaker 2: We say you'd say it's a doing course, not a memorizing course.

Speaker 2: That's what would be called, from an academic perspective, active learning.

Speaker 2: And it's been that since day one And from about, i think, 10 years ago, when simulations appeared.

Speaker 2: And I'll tell you, the first time we used was a disaster.

Speaker 2: But anyway, there's some great now management simulations.

Speaker 2: So we put we got 30 students, 16 of five, and they're running.

Speaker 2: They started off a day one.

Speaker 2: They have to come up with the name for the business, how to go on to compete.

Speaker 2: So we put them in a pressure cooker.

Speaker 2: I would say, hopefully the students are listening for them anyway.

Speaker 2: Oh no, they know, we put them in a pressure cooker and they're running a business and they have basically every two days, or Sometimes one day, it's a quarter quarter results for the business type thing And we don't bring a true to the full two-year thing, but it's basically.

Speaker 2: It is based on the, the concept of team formation.

Speaker 2: It's the model of forming, storming, forming, performing, and so the design is one day, tuesday.

Speaker 2: It's a 10-day intensive, monday to Friday.

Speaker 2: Hey, okay, and they choose day Wednesday.

Speaker 2: They're in the form in the story.

Speaker 2: There's a Friday, we do interventions and then, they have Monday and Tuesday and to finish off, and basically, and it's, they go through it and They bitch and complain.

Speaker 1: Why did I buy this course?

Speaker 1: Yeah?

Speaker 2: cuz executive.

Speaker 1: MBA courses at Rotman are not inexpensive.

Speaker 2: Well, but the thing is then, i mean an iron bragging last January this year that we got, they changed the rating, but we, yeah, the previous year we got 6.7 on the scale of seven, which we thought was a record.

Speaker 2: This year They changed it, i didn't know anyway and we have five point five out of five, wow, wow.

Speaker 2: But the thing is, when they get to the Wednesday, thursday, hmm, the whole system comes together because they've gone through, because we, you know, they bring them through the whole minute and at the end of the day the light bulb goes on and you know, holy shit, okay, i care what those assholes are trying to get me to there.

Speaker 2: Okay, you know.

Speaker 2: So it's, it's a system, it's active learning, it's doing, you see, right, right and like, even in the class, our system is hate.

Speaker 2: We talk for a little bit, then there's individual work, self-reflection and there's teamwork, then there's class discussion and moving on.

Speaker 2: We are not forever.

Speaker 2: We said we're not the sage on the stage.

Speaker 2: Yeah, where your guide on the side.

Speaker 2: Okay, so you know we're, you know It's active learning.

Speaker 2: You know, kelly, and I is, you know, my new one.

Speaker 2: It's, you know, we're earlier on this morning.

Speaker 2: We're talking 15 minutes.

Speaker 2: That's way too frigging long, okay.

Speaker 2: Well, the wire shut his mind off, okay right.

Speaker 1: So so this, this course, there's an active learning component, but but if you're open to it, i would.

Speaker 1: I read some of the course syllabus that I found at the Rotman school and there's these four categories that you talk about in the course syllabus and and I know you've just given us some of the context of how you Teach it and some of the structure of it but there's these four core concepts you talk about strategic choice, organizational alignment, managing for results and Continuous improvement.

Speaker 1: Those seem to be the four that I pulled out, and I may be wrong in that, so correct me if I'm wrong, but can you kind of unpack those four things, because I I feel like you're a teacher and You're often on the side instead on the stage, but I just want you to unpack those four things and why they matter in management Specifically, as opposed to organizational design, strategic thinking.

Speaker 1: But those four things strategic choice, organizational alignment kind of unpack those four me in a few minutes.

Speaker 2: Well, though what let me go was in the middle, though, is your purpose is in the values.

Speaker 2: That, to me, is huge.

Speaker 2: Okay, i think it's Daniel pink, whatever, motivation 3.0.

Speaker 2: The young kids talk to be anybody under 50 for me, but anyway it is.

Speaker 2: They want autonomy.

Speaker 2: Mastery of purpose Yeah, so, as I, with the, you know the nonprofits of all of volunteer for their soap clear, but women, microlending That purposes.

Speaker 2: So potential prosperity?

Speaker 2: There's no, it's one of those ones.

Speaker 2: Yes, i'd be proud to wear it on my t-shirt.

Speaker 2: Hmm, hey, and then the mastery is, they say people aren't as loyal to organizations But loyal to their careers.

Speaker 2: Are you helping them grow and develop?

Speaker 2: and then you're.

Speaker 2: The other one is autonomy.

Speaker 2: You're hard and adults, which it give them role carry and accountability, give them resources and get out of bloody way, but be there to coach and mentor.

Speaker 2: But anyway, the purpose is in the center.

Speaker 2: And then added the purpose and division is, and, and so on, the strategy.

Speaker 2: We use Roger Marston's as a pastine.

Speaker 2: This is what's our winning aspiration, right, which should tie to division.

Speaker 2: Is you?

Speaker 2: what's her deal for winning aspiration as an organization?

Speaker 2: and added that, then is okay, here's where you want to be, depending where you want to go three, five years.

Speaker 2: And now that, okay, what's her, what's her strategy to get there?

Speaker 2: and then the key bit then is okay, what do we got to deliver as an organization for the next fiscal year?

Speaker 2: Hmm, take you, take that one step on the three year or five year journey.

Speaker 2: And once you have that, how do you communicate that down to your people right?

Speaker 2: How do you get every use trago's?

Speaker 2: how do you get everybody aligned right?

Speaker 2: And so it's, it's a deployment process which gets you the alignment, and then it is okay.

Speaker 2: And it's.

Speaker 2: We use a tin called a performance screen, the other word.

Speaker 2: They plagiarized us, they came after us, actually Kaplan and Orton.

Speaker 2: The scorecard forms agreement goes back to 1974, bill, or dr Bill Redden, but we won't argue about it.

Speaker 2: But it is here's your performance agreement, and they're all aligned, the triangles are all aligned, and so that actually the receptionist guy Knows here's what I'm doing, here's what my boss is doing, here's where our departments doing, here's where the organizers going.

Speaker 2: So that's the key thing about alignment they know how they contribute.

Speaker 2: And then they have checkpoint processes, which results management.

Speaker 2: You can call it performance.

Speaker 2: I know we've been through those managements about outputs, i don't care what he put, if you're in sales, i don't care if you turn out five days a week because love you, hate your targets, and I've known people who to do that on the golf course.

Speaker 2: And three days, god bless, all right, i'll take off.

Speaker 2: And then continuous improvement is how we stay in best and plus and ahead of the competition.

Speaker 2: So you know what your strategy, what what your vision.

Speaker 2: First you win an aspiration, your strategy, deploy it down.

Speaker 2: Everybody's aligned.

Speaker 2: We're checkpoint along the way, do course corrections, because shit happens, i and then we're staying best and plus, and so it's.

Speaker 2: You know what the organ I mean.

Speaker 2: I got organizations I work with them in.

Speaker 2: I'll be in Chicago in July for two days And I'll be in without our same organization in November for two days, because it's a manual cycle and that's the discipline of execution.

Speaker 2: Mmm, discipline of execute.

Speaker 2: You put it in the bloody calendar a year in advance.

Speaker 2: Everybody knows, we know what's happened.

Speaker 2: For Christ's sake, it's like if you're and there was in the public called a dumpy.

Speaker 2: You knew when you had to get your does the London Stock Exchange.

Speaker 2: We knew when we had to get our stuff into London Stock Exchange.

Speaker 2: Why wouldn't it be in the bloody counter as a saying when a management system, why wouldn't you have an ability counter It's lack of discipline?

Speaker 1: right.

Speaker 1: So there's a there's a cadence to the system.

Speaker 1: That's really important to.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I got one one client Tim.

Speaker 2: Actually, he's the guy in Chicago, he's CFO.

Speaker 2: I've been through four Fortune-rounder companies with a man.

Speaker 2: Every time he brings me in.

Speaker 2: This is John Adore.

Speaker 2: He's not every cup of tea, but he's my cup of tea.

Speaker 2: He's a management system.

Speaker 2: There's other management systems there.

Speaker 2: It works for me.

Speaker 2: You'll get used to him and you get used to the system.

Speaker 2: Right, that's what we're doing.

Speaker 2: Yeah, right.

Speaker 1: So well, you, you have a Affinity, obviously, to some of your.

Speaker 1: You know your peers from Rotten, but you talk a little little bit about Bill Redden, and I went in Preparation.

Speaker 1: I've read Bill Redden before, but you have, yeah, but you, you, you mentioned at one point And it's not in your course curriculum, it's somewhere else.

Speaker 1: I find this, which is managing of others is self-management, and How how do you see that line that Bill Redden Delivered managing of others is self-management because it ties back to you know your own rhythms and Cadences in terms of running a business.

Speaker 1: That that's management side of things.

Speaker 1: What's your take on Bill's statement?

Speaker 2: in that case and I jet I tend to turn it around because It's confusing some people and I say if you can't manage yourself, you can't manage others.

Speaker 1: So where do you see?

Speaker 1: you can it from the other.

Speaker 2: You take from the results, end right, and I go.

Speaker 2: I say to people listen, be the leader you would like to work for.

Speaker 2: Well.

Speaker 2: No, how many people do that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, i'm gonna test.

Speaker 2: Look in the mirror, yeah, and say, oh shit, i shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, be, and it's kind of it aligns with your philosophy of teaching, which is be the teacher that I would listen to.

Speaker 2: yes, I I haven't verbalized it or told it like that, but yes, now that you say it, yes, yeah, yeah, thank you for that, actually, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so from because you've said this you, you teach and and I realize you teach Collaboratively in teams and things like that but you've done this for a long time and you coach, you advise, you consult In a lot of different business scenarios, from micro businesses right up to large publicly traded companies.

Speaker 1: So what's the thing that you're seeing right now, where CEOs, c-suite are struggling the most in today's world right now, what are you hearing from them?

Speaker 1: What are you observing in them that they might not even know is happening?

Speaker 1: But what?

Speaker 1: what's the thing that's they're the most challenging for them right now.

Speaker 2: It's.

Speaker 2: You know it's being the same, i think forever.

Speaker 2: And you see, in I always say And I'm obviously I'm very biased and very Pinnier native Yep, i gotta say 20th century was called human resource management And I don't, i don't like the word resources because we deplete them in the 21st century And the rest of the New York Stock Exchange is about a Hcm human capital management and you invest in capital And organizations.

Speaker 2: Now, their biggest challenge, i would say, without exception, it'll always be in the top three, doesn't matter what Will be people, and I had presidency over already six billion dollar company talked to us a week ago And he was asked what's the one thing keeps you awake?

Speaker 2: and my people, yeah, yeah, you in capital, that's your resources.

Speaker 2: Doesn't matter where your Ford room in a plant, doesn't matter what you do, it's your people.

Speaker 2: You're only as good as your people and so it's human capital management, it's, and that's why, that's why I wanted to do OV and you know, okay, now that I'm sort of trying to return that, yeah, they get it now.

Speaker 2: I saw it pretty spring in years ago.

Speaker 2: I'm saying I was ahead of that.

Speaker 2: I was a freaking generation, too bloody early, you know it's like.

Speaker 1: Anyway, i haven't okay, so that that I'm having fun on this one.

Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, but human capital management is this big thing.

Speaker 1: It's this big, big amorphous mass of stuff and it's critical.

Speaker 1: But are there any specific nuances that you're seeing?

Speaker 2: That's the problem You said.

Speaker 2: I don't agree with that.

Speaker 2: Okay my one is and I say get a bit.

Speaker 2: I said that yesterday Again, bad the knee limitations and that the council goes It says you know, if you have people reporting to you and if you hire people, because it's at every level in the organization, that's not a big amorphous thing.

Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, culture and a value and a concept that says, hey, you have Anatical and moral responsibility to help that be that person, be the best they can be, to inspire them to be on, to perform beyond their own expectations, don't care what your leader or manager.

Speaker 2: That is an ethical and moral responsibility.

Speaker 2: And if everybody who had people reporting to them did that, from the top to the bottom, fucking world will be a better place.

Speaker 2: Excuse my language.

Speaker 1: That's Irish.

Speaker 2: Yes, yes, they, the Irish, came out there in a really profoundly cool way, so so, no, it's beautiful, it's, and I think it's what I'm saying, though It's yes people should come in to work with a smile on their face and, more importantly, you should leave with a smile on their face and it doesn't matter what level of the organization, the rats that we had, middle managers yesterday We're saying, forget about up there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you Can inspire your people.

Speaker 2: I wanted a one of the exercises what you're winning, aspiration for your department.

Speaker 1: I did this with another.

Speaker 2: We did this with another organization and it was a financial institution big, bloody bloke, whatever right and That marketing person was hey, we're going to be the industry leader for social media presence in our industry.

Speaker 2: There are people where I've told you they're going holy shit, i want to.

Speaker 2: I'll whip that like they got.

Speaker 2: Actually they got because they're marketing got mugs, mate, and they got t-shirts and everything.

Speaker 2: Right, you know I'm saying, but you can inspire your people.

Speaker 2: You should inspire your people to perform Beyond their expectations.

Speaker 2: That's the job of anybody who hire somebody or have somebody report an interim period And it's not a big mess, it's.

Speaker 2: It has to be passed all the way down down from the top and problem is the fish ross in the bloody head down and that's what's.

Speaker 2: The lack of goddamn leadership of this is the problem.

Speaker 1: Excuse me, No, no, i got it.

Speaker 1: So if human capital management is the biggest issue and it's really clear What it is to do and it's a leadership down thing, what's the?

Speaker 1: what's the?

Speaker 1: you've delivered it like.

Speaker 1: It's my job as a leader, anywhere I am in the organization, to to make it my prime responsibility to make sure the people who work for me show up and have a better life, are Excited to show up.

Speaker 1: All of that is is critical to a, i think, keeping people around, because that seems to be a challenge right now, which is people are just Bolting, they, they, because if they don't like the fact that you're a crappy leader, they're walking.

Speaker 1: Now They're not staying like they used to, so There is.

Speaker 2: There's many reasons people leave, but one of the insistence one, and, depending on what, i'll give you the conserved of answer Yeah, 50% of the people in their lives have left the job because they're working for an asshole.

Speaker 2: One reason right, right, okay.

Speaker 2: People don't tend to leave organizations.

Speaker 2: They leave the idiot they're working for and I've seen it even recently.

Speaker 2: I'm going how the hell is he still in his job?

Speaker 2: There's still dysfunction going on that you think In this day and age.

Speaker 2: That just frustrates me.

Speaker 2: No I get all as I get older and getting less, less patient and less I've been coming more of an asshole myself, okay.

Speaker 1: So so that the the challenge I hear you raising is that the, the average leader, doesn't actually Recognize that they're the problem right, because a lot of them are sitting looking at their team and going.

Speaker 1: You know, you don't think like I do.

Speaker 1: You don't act like I do.

Speaker 1: You're not as smart as I am, you're not as motivated as I am, because That's language.

Speaker 1: I hear a lot and What you're saying is the mirror is the place you have to look if you're gonna change this thing.

Speaker 2: Well, actually, you see, i'll actually go watch you on a different tack in this one, the Peter principle, right Mm-hmm, which was captain Peters, you get promoted to your level of confidence.

Speaker 2: I actually don't agree with that.

Speaker 2: Okay that you see, to me is a lack of leadership.

Speaker 2: We get people get promoted because their experts and actually Simon Sinek has a great one on this from management leaders.

Speaker 2: They get promoted because they're good at a job and then they put into to put into a position right, where they're in charge of people, right, and they have to move from being the expert on the job and, as he would say, instead of being in charge, you need to take care of the people in your charge and And its organizations do not train people and develop people.

Speaker 2: They promote them, not to their level of confidence, to promote them into a position and don't train them to be confident in that position.

Speaker 2: So you know and I've had it already years, it was somebody will say to me We have a problem with that person.

Speaker 2: I will know is I've for decades I said who does that person report into?

Speaker 2: why you ask him, where's the authority in the relationship?

Speaker 2: That's the person's the problem, not the person, and I wasn't The Armory reserves, you know.

Speaker 2: Okay, it's all to break Aaron of Corporal, but it is.

Speaker 2: You don't blame the private, you blame the people at the next level up, and so that's a failure, you see, of organizations is they promote people and then they don't provide them to train in a support So they can develop and adjust from being the one doing the job to be in charge of the people, taking care of the people in their charge, doing the job.

Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, it makes complete sense and it's.

Speaker 1: I've seen it a lot in, i mean in many places.

Speaker 1: But I what rises to you know, mine for me immediately is sales people who are really good at sales Become sales managers.

Speaker 1: But salesman, the sales management job, is not being the best salesperson.

Speaker 1: The sales management job has a completely different function, set of Directives to it, than being a salesperson.

Speaker 1: And if you just try and act more like you were, but that doesn't work either and sales Management people get either quit or get fired frequently.

Speaker 1: But they didn't get trained to be a sales manager.

Speaker 1: They were elevated from being really good at what they do did into a role that they didn't learn how to do.

Speaker 2: Well, no, but you see, and I was, that's more I don't say that's more historical That the new ones wouldn't do.

Speaker 2: That night I said I mentioned there You're on if you're a salesperson and you spend five days on the week of golfing and you still get turning your numbers.

Speaker 2: I don't give a rat's ass.

Speaker 2: And I knew a couple of people, one in telecoms and one of our city goes, and those who I Don't know if they ever worked today in their life, but they were.

Speaker 2: They were taken out of the sales competition because they always would have, and they were offered management positions.

Speaker 2: And I said you got to be joking me, i don't, i would be no good at it.

Speaker 2: So, right, more and more people.

Speaker 2: You know they're saying no, i don't want to lead.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i know when I'm good at and I did, like this attest was not fair marriages and profession managers of professional service firms.

Speaker 2: You know Rainmakers are the ones that are the important people there, but actually most of them couldn't manage to piss up in a brewery but they can sell okay, so it's different, but then, but then you don't get respect in the profession service.

Speaker 2: They're, if you're not a rainmaker, so they have a whole completely god, i'm okay, won't go there.

Speaker 2: I should serve as first was.

Speaker 2: A was a speciality of mine, but anyway okay.

Speaker 1: Well, another thing I didn't know about you.

Speaker 1: So this show is actually about advisory boards.

Speaker 1: So let's, let's have pivot a little bit, please.

Speaker 1: So you, based on what I see, you both sat on advisory boards.

Speaker 1: You sit on governance boards.

Speaker 1: You're both in not-for-profit and for-profit companies.

Speaker 1: Give me some of your experience of what you've seen, and as as raw and unfiltered as you've been so far, give it to me more.

Speaker 1: Where do you see the challenges with with advisory boards and governance boards?

Speaker 1: Where do you see people screwing up in that environment?

Speaker 1: Where do you feel like you're seeing successes?

Speaker 2: Well, way back in Ireland and it's in Europe.

Speaker 2: Advisory boards have been around for decades.

Speaker 2: Yep, i the German companies in particular good at because we got lots of family ones.

Speaker 2: And the thing about is the when I was working venture capital in Ireland, i was on I don't know half dozen and Arthur was, the advisory board doesn't have legal liability, right.

Speaker 2: I had some in here, and when I, when I went back to school, i stayed on the board of the company I was president CEO, i said, hey, i fired that asshole president CEO.

Speaker 2: That was me from older, my VP engineer, but I stayed around for a few years.

Speaker 2: But you have liability if taxes aren't paid and payroll isn't paid, right.

Speaker 2: So the beauty of an advisory board it comes without the legal liability, which you get all the advice and so, yeah, actually one of those things you probably didn't know, i actually, as if one of my failed ventures was, i tried to set up a Advice and take an American French like tech to.

Speaker 2: You see it does.

Speaker 2: Anyway, it didn't work for me, but I totally believe the concept of having it's lonely at the top and have it outside Advisors is huge, you see, and it's for, like, the whole concept of YPO, young presence organization, i mean that whole concept right, but not everybody's at that level of revenues and things to do it.

Speaker 2: So advisory boards are huge, you know, it's, it's what it's, not just as lonely at the top.

Speaker 2: It's good to have people with diverse backgrounds that you can use as a sounding board.

Speaker 2: I mean, and say I was on one one because I was young, as I said, like you have 23 or something.

Speaker 2: Okay, wasn't what you say.

Speaker 2: We go anyway, but yes.

Speaker 2: So I mean, you know, but it's having.

Speaker 2: I could do the numbers though I could do them right.

Speaker 2: So it's having having board of advisors, you know one.

Speaker 2: It's people to talk to, because you can't talk to your director or say away right, and so to me an advisory board.

Speaker 2: Everybody should have any.

Speaker 2: Any presidency, oh you know, should have an advisory board.

Speaker 2: I would say.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so when they, at least from your perspective and what you've seen and what you've experienced, because, as you've talked about it there, there's an element in there which is more the communication between a CEO and this group of people, but the function of a board, especially an advisory board, when it's not a legal liability system and it's thinking partners, it's pushing you on things, it's giving perspective, but there's the one-on-one interaction, but there's the value of the group sitting together and being involved.

Speaker 1: How have you seen that distinction between one to one interaction with your advisors versus the group dynamic?

Speaker 1: Oh, no, to me it's always the group.

Speaker 2: Okay, there's sorry, there's enough research on that.

Speaker 2: Diverse mindsets will come up with a better solution.

Speaker 2: Ah, okay, it's the old.

Speaker 2: Hold on, it's the old.

Speaker 2: I see Presence O do it.

Speaker 2: It's bullshit.

Speaker 2: It's called a hub and spoke.

Speaker 2: I'm in the middle and I go and I spoke one at a time.

Speaker 2: I mean, in the end up at silos, you end up with crap.

Speaker 2: No, you need to bring the diverse viewpoints together.

Speaker 2: Bring the wheel together.

Speaker 2: Don't be going out on a spoke.

Speaker 2: Bring the wheel together, because you know Tom, you and I, you know the Presence say okay and the lesson we're on the weird advisory board.

Speaker 2: They said something to us.

Speaker 2: You probably say one thing and I go well, i should use you to go.

Speaker 2: Oh, i didn't take it off.

Speaker 2: But now did you say that, how about this?

Speaker 2: And then you would go oh, can I have out this?

Speaker 2: And then we'd have other people there.

Speaker 2: No, no, it is.

Speaker 2: It is the power of a diverse group bringing that diversity.

Speaker 2: It's proven.

Speaker 2: I could give it a research of what they're looking for.

Speaker 2: It's this is no, this is like freaking.

Speaker 1: Managing 101.

Speaker 1: No, it's it's.

Speaker 1: And it's such an important distinction because I think so often in and Europe has had a long history of more formal advisory boards I feel like North America, as I, you know, dig into this, i realized that North America tends to have this more ad hoc hub and spoke model of advisory boards And many people in the?

Speaker 1: U that I've seen, many people in North America tend to have an advisory board just because they want those names sitting in there on their website But they're not functionally ineffective And and sometimes there is that hub and spoke thing.

Speaker 1: But I agree completely that what you miss is this really incredible conversation that sparks better results from the conversation that happens in a group environment where the CEO is present to give.

Speaker 1: I got this challenge, i got this problem, i got this thing we're trying to accomplish in the world And this group of people who are bright, intelligent, experienced rub off of each other And it's I don't know, it feels like that, that kind of old model of you know when you, when you rub, you know a couple of old pieces of wood together, you get flame And sometimes I think the missing piece is what you just said there.

Speaker 1: The hub and spoke model is flawed when we think of advisory boards that way.

Speaker 2: No, it's not.

Speaker 2: It's not that it's flawed.

Speaker 2: It sucks.

Speaker 2: It shouldn't be used.

Speaker 2: It's not a model.

Speaker 2: I say it's bankrupt.

Speaker 2: She's priced Okay.

Speaker 1: John, I love that In my humble opinion okay, i love it, i, and I love your humble opinion on this.

Speaker 1: So so you sit on an advisory board.

Speaker 1: let's, let's kind of come back with it slightly different.

Speaker 1: You're sitting on an advisory board.

Speaker 1: what's the sort of superpower you bring?

Speaker 1: So, if I invite you onto an advisory board and you're sitting there, what's the thing that you're processing all the time?

Speaker 1: What's the?

Speaker 1: what's the point of view you have?

Speaker 1: or the way you see around walls that nobody else does typically, what's what's your thing?

Speaker 1: Is it organizational stuff?

Speaker 1: Is it people?

Speaker 1: What's the thing that that you, you can't help yourself but get snarky about in these meetings?

Speaker 2: Well, no, actually it's.

Speaker 2: It's interesting when I did a PhD at Western, we had to take their first year strategy course because they were known for strategy Okay.

Speaker 2: And after I think the first week or two, after a few classes I had, the prof came up to me and said, john, okay, or says you hold back after class, and I said, yeah, i wonder what the hell did I do?

Speaker 2: And he says, okay, you got your six out of six for participation.

Speaker 2: Now shut up.

Speaker 2: and I say, ask you.

Speaker 2: And I go, what did I do wrong?

Speaker 2: And it was.

Speaker 2: I would do my homework always, always come prepared to meetings.

Speaker 2: I read every damn thing going and I would come in, never with the best answer.

Speaker 2: But then somebody would say something.

Speaker 2: somebody would say something, somebody would say something.

Speaker 2: I go, oh, take that, the screw that and change my answer.

Speaker 2: And so, whatever, maybe it was 45 minutes into a 90 minute class, i'd put my hand up and give my solution and the prof, that's what the prof didn't like.

Speaker 2: So he says you're coming to it too soon.

Speaker 2: I need to work the class, okay, cause, case study, stuff, right.

Speaker 2: And so I never disperse in the room, believe it or not, actually I can shut up and listen.

Speaker 2: And so I listen for the other perspectives that I had to mine, because I never had the right if I never have the best answer.

Speaker 2: So it's basically shut up and listen Now.

Speaker 2: he said that to my wife she'd go Yeah right, but anyway you know it's not telling you.

Speaker 1: you did this podcast because we don't want to create marital strife.

Speaker 2: Shut up and listen and be open to there's some saying, to diversity at all.

Speaker 2: Did you go like my one is Damn, i didn't think of that.

Speaker 2: Jesus didn't think of that one either.

Speaker 2: Wow, i'm slow, okay, but hold on, if I put that, i did think of that, though they didn't think of that, and I put that and that.

Speaker 2: That.

Speaker 2: That together Connect the dots.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so just it shut up and listen and connect dots, got it?

Speaker 2: That's, that's the.

Speaker 2: I mean, that's the whole thing is about the diversity of thought.

Speaker 2: You know, and here's one of the ones I'll give you a time, and it's sound counterintuitive, you see, is particularly because I've worked with a lot of sounders, family, bringing in COO's and that And what it is is, um, any people with such a strong ego, they have no ego needs.

Speaker 2: So I don't give a rat's ass, as it's my decision, it's what's right for the organization, what's right for the company, right.

Speaker 2: You know, i don't have to be.

Speaker 2: You know, i don't give a rat's ass.

Speaker 2: At the stage of my life, i don't give a rat's ass, just leave me out of it Okay, but here did you think of this, okay, and so I don't need my name anywhere.

Speaker 1: So let me, i just want to repeat that because I, you, you illustrated it, but I just want to make sure I got the point.

Speaker 1: You, it's really important to have a board around you, an advisory board around you that has strong egos, with no ego needs.

Speaker 1: That's what I said.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i say it's.

Speaker 2: It's.

Speaker 2: Lindsay only talks about employing people that should be humble, hungry and smart.

Speaker 2: Humble, hungry is always learning, open to learning And smart is actually.

Speaker 2: Smart, is directly good at interpersonal skills And I would say you want people who are, you know, humble, it's not about them.

Speaker 2: Yeah Right, you're hungry.

Speaker 2: They want to learn more and want to learn from each other, like the ones I want to go.

Speaker 2: Wow, i got one of them on and I go.

Speaker 2: I want to really learn from her because she's in a neat place.

Speaker 2: I can learn there, right?

Speaker 2: And then smart is.

Speaker 2: smart is interpersonal skills, eq and that.

Speaker 2: So that's that's what I would say.

Speaker 2: And I say, hey, listen, i'm still not there, i'm still in asshole.

Speaker 2: Okay, joe, i'm working on it.

Speaker 2: It's a work in progress, okay.

Speaker 1: Well, I think we're all working in progress, And I'm appreciative of the fact that you're you're humble enough to say that with the strong ego that you possess, which is great.

Speaker 1: So this has been really helpful, And I feel like you and I could go probably another three hours, but we've already almost completed an hour, So so thank you for all that.

Speaker 1: I'd like to end our conversations with just some random, crazy questions that I hope will you know.

Speaker 1: That's, that's dangerous when you're told they were crazy bound, you know, Oh I know, i know And I'm I'm fearing the questions I prepared for you, but we'll go with them anyways.

Speaker 1: So you are a self described Bon Vivant, and so what would others describe as the part of you that most fits that specific billing?

Speaker 1: Because that has a lot of connotation to it.

Speaker 1: But if not yourself, but if somebody else, people who are close to you said, Oh, this is why he's that, what would they say?

Speaker 2: And actually it goes back to when one year I had to go to my father's big brothers that the family, the father's farm and Martin.

Speaker 2: They had no kids.

Speaker 2: I was 12 years old And Martin is on the pharmacy.

Speaker 2: John, you're as useful as tits in a bowl, but you're fun.

Speaker 2: Get on the tractor.

Speaker 2: We're going to the pub.

Speaker 2: And I just I was.

Speaker 2: I was on the subway here going downtown and I met the wife of.

Speaker 2: I was a crew for a guy here at Mivico and he was without crew And I'm like, definitely as useful as tits in a bowl.

Speaker 2: It's crewing, right, but anyway, but and and his wife said we'll have a great time.

Speaker 2: He had so much fun that night.

Speaker 2: And yeah, when I do other stuff, people just say, yeah, he might be as useful as tits in a bowl.

Speaker 2: He's fun to have around.

Speaker 2: I don't know.

Speaker 2: So Bon Vivant is enjoy life for Christ's sake.

Speaker 2: Okay, yes.

Speaker 1: Enjoy life All right.

Speaker 1: Second question You can only do one of these.

Speaker 1: Life has handed you, sort of you know, lemons and you've got to choose one of the two, Flying or sailing.

Speaker 1: Which one do you you keep and which one do you give up Cause you got to give up one of them?

Speaker 2: Oh, that's a nasty one, jesus.

Speaker 2: That's not fair.

Speaker 2: I know how to say actually, you know what I'm going to do it.

Speaker 2: from an economic perspective, okay, boats are a lot cheaper than planes.

Speaker 1: Right, all right, that's enough said.

Speaker 1: I don't want to get into the weeds, but I know you love sailing and we love flying The boat is a boat in the water that you throw money into, but compared to planes it's cheaper.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pocket change.

Speaker 1: What's the best of these three brands?

Speaker 1: Tealing Greenspot or Redbreast?

Speaker 1: Hold on, say that again Tealing Greenspot or Redbreast.

Speaker 2: I don't even recognize the first two.

Speaker 1: Well, what are they?

Speaker 1: They're Irish whiskeys.

Speaker 2: Oh, i'm not an Irish whiskey person, okay.

Speaker 2: So they said okay.

Speaker 2: So hold on.

Speaker 2: Tealings, tealings, tealings, sorry Yeah, sorry Okay.

Speaker 2: What's the second one?

Speaker 2: Greenspot?

Speaker 2: Now forget that.

Speaker 2: Okay, between Redbreast and Tealings.

Speaker 2: I actually go on because I took tour of Tealings.

Speaker 2: I'm going to say Tealings, got it.

Speaker 1: All right, What was the first question you asked?

Speaker 1: ChatGPT Oh.

Speaker 2: God, oh, actually.

Speaker 2: How about the first use of one I did for a coach, indigenous people, whatever.

Speaker 2: And, by the way, i'm going to create a nation of women's G on Sunday for a week Wow, volunteering, but anyway.

Speaker 2: I put in a job posting and said write a cover letter for this job posting and then cut and posted it and gave it to the person And she looked at it and goes wow And like and she probably wouldn't have applied, but it did 90% of it And and date.

Speaker 2: She's on her second interview.

Speaker 2: She passed her second interview.

Speaker 2: Well, she has had her second interview.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's, that's wonderful.

Speaker 1: How would your closest family members and maybe I'm talking about your cousins from Ireland, as opposed to your wife, how would they define what you actually do?

Speaker 2: Oh, they wouldn't.

Speaker 2: I've got like 15 nieces and nephews.

Speaker 2: They would be, and the cousins would be John's, just the mad uncle.

Speaker 2: We have one, so they won't even describe what you do.

Speaker 1: He's just the mad uncle.

Speaker 2: And he said yeah, it was like it was my brother and I had COVID.

Speaker 2: I wasn't able to get to my nieces wedding, got COVID three days before And and after you say yeah, my daughter gets up and says our favorite drink of Perkman is Uncle John.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's hilarious.

Speaker 1: My final question for you, because you're well read, You're curiously crazy.

Speaker 1: What's the book that has shaped you more than any other?

Speaker 1: If you could point to one book that has had an irrationally big impact on you, what would that be?

Speaker 1: And I realize there's millions, because I know you're a big reader.

Speaker 1: but what?

Speaker 1: what one book might you consider nudges out the others in terms of its influence on your life?

Speaker 1: You're thinking you're a Republican Beto, Really.

Speaker 1: Why is that?

Speaker 2: Because the subtle flies now, it'll never be implemented.

Speaker 2: But you look at what he was proposing.

Speaker 2: You couldn't do it.

Speaker 2: But you look at what In a utopian well, no, even no.

Speaker 2: I mean.

Speaker 2: It's not that I necessarily agree with it, but it's just a challenge And it is.

Speaker 2: Yeah it tries to describe a utopia, but it's human nature to never be able to step up to a niche requirements.

Speaker 1: And so, within that for you, in terms of why it has influenced you, is it that thing in you that longs for something that's impossible to achieve?

Speaker 1: What's the drawing card for you in that unattainable thing?

Speaker 1: It's about.

Speaker 2: We've always got to improve.

Speaker 2: The part of my problem was I could never accept the status quo.

Speaker 2: I mean I wish I could, life would be a lot easier, i wouldn't be keeping on challenging and getting in trouble and shit.

Speaker 2: But I just can't.

Speaker 2: When I see shit, it's like I have a little boredom threshold, i have a little patience threshold And it's just there's something that we should aspire to And that's there's.

Speaker 2: Maybe it's just the desire to, but the desire to we can always improve, and people to accept the status quo and not try to improve just pisses me off.

Speaker 2: It's not a good use of human spirit in that, and that's.

Speaker 2: We should all be and have a new book that's coming out, the Oh, the Intergalactic Gold of Teapot.

Speaker 1: That's the that the Intergalactic Golden Teapot Fate.

Speaker 2: It's a.

Speaker 2: It's a fate document.

Speaker 1: Well, so when is this launching so that we, we can connect to it?

Speaker 2: I actually finished it, finished the draft of it two o'clock this morning.

Speaker 2: Oh, i need, i need people, i need somebody to do some illustrations for it.

Speaker 2: And it's basically actually based on the idea came from Bert and Russell.

Speaker 2: It was an English mathematician, a philosopher, who talked about teapot, right, and it's basically.

Speaker 2: It's a, it's a philosophical thing that says here's my fate, that's about love, not judge, and as it is.

Speaker 2: And then, if you come into conflict, you sit down and have a cup of right, the couple of not right, and so you know whether you're a Klingon, whether you're whatever the Ewoks, you're Russian, you're Mexican, you know, have your cup of and sit down, and so there's no conflict.

Speaker 2: We sit down and that's it's.

Speaker 2: And I'm just saying my fate is as provable.

Speaker 2: And then I have also reviews from Roman Catholics, gas, muslims, agnostics, and they all agree that if yes, it wouldn't be what we would do.

Speaker 2: But the basic tenants are to say and it's just, how are my faith doesn't kill people, it's a setup, ok, it's, it's, it's stirring it, it, this is really.

Speaker 2: Everything is Tom.

Speaker 2: Yeah, everything came with John as a stirrer.

Speaker 2: He stirs.

Speaker 1: Yes, he's definitely a stirrer And I have to say, as we come to the end of this, thank you for stirring the pot today.

Speaker 1: Doc John, you're a hoot and a challenge and a all of the above, and it's been, it's been, an absolute delight to talk to you today And and get your wisdom, get your insight, get your anger, get your frustration and have it all because it's all good.

Speaker 1: So, thank you.

Speaker 2: Thank you Stop recording.